lv99 bitch/speculation/etc thread

[ringthree]

lol@you if you think SAM is broken... maybe you need to use parsers?

While I do not believe that SAM is "broken", it does have the ability to pretty continually put out decent damage on high level mobs. This can't really be seen on an XP party parse. The problem is not so much with the job itself, it is with it's WS modifiers and the Hagun, which combined make SAM scale better against high level mobs than any other job.

In reality, if allowed to truly "fight" a mob (like against say a Chariot) then the difference between almost all of the DDs (MNK included) is pretty small, and swings greatly based on player attentiveness and gearing.

[Max™]

It made me happy that they kept tossing in the somewhat grudging "War/Sam and Sam/War" comments.


Is your DD job broken? Let's find out:

1. Do you have access to Berserk?

[ ]Yes
[ ]No

2. Do you have access to Hasso?

[ ]Yes
[ ]No

3. Can you 6 hit in high haste gear with high accuracy with powerful weaponskills?

[ ]Yes
[ ]No

If you didn't answer yes to all three, your job isn't broken, unless you're packing the appropriate gamechanger type relics/gear, or in the ideal situations for said job.


I mean shit, I haven't been playing in months, did I miss the update where they took away the big beefy pwnsteak of whoopass and extra gravy that War/Sam and Sam/War are forcefed constantly?

[ringthree]

Again, sam isn't really broken anymore, in my opinion. War/sam and Sam/war are both top of the line DDs, and nothing else can really compete, all else equal.

I will assert, and of course be shouted down for it, that DRG/SAM while not equal to SAM/WAR or WAR/SAM is very close, and when played well the difference is marginal.

I do have the parses in Salvage and on neutral XP camps that indicate this.

I know, I know, I must be the worst player since Feiwong, and I am a gimp noob, etc, etc.

[ZhiGaruda]

Still I can't see the logic behind pchan's argument. I haven't played melee jobs for 6 months, but I dont' see how it's possible for dualwield axe to beat Gaxe. Hitting fast is pointless when the mobs die within seconds, DOT damage is slow as hell compared to 5-/6-hit build.

First no one said dual wield axe - it's dual wield - which is Maneater/Ridill almost exclusively.

And this is why you see so many "lolRidill" comments on this forum. People assume instead of looking at facts. Ridill wins in many, many situations.

[FailureMidgard]

I think what he means is a large proportion of MNK damage comes from DOT thus having extra haste gear does make a difference.

Still I can't see the logic behind pchan's argument. I haven't played melee jobs for 6 months, but I dont' see how it's possible for dualwield axe to beat Gaxe. Hitting fast is pointless when the mobs die within seconds, DOT damage is slow as hell compared to 5-/6-hit build. The reason why SAM is so good is because they have more tools to manipulate TP gain and access to some of the strongest WS in this game.

I realize this, but my point is in a proper-buff situation (Dnc), a sam's delay is lower than a mnk. Granted, a mnk attacks twice with a slightly lower damage weapon, so they do a little more DOT or whatever, but a mnk has less haste than a sam, and even with less delay, after you add a dnc (which is pretty easy to have anywhere but salvage...idk, maybe some groups use a dnc in salvage too? Seems rough on JA cells early on), and even beforehand, the mnk barely wins on delay.

Also, inb4 hagun dot is bad. Sams can choose better dot weapons, but all the math points to that being worse, so ya...

Anyway, mostly agree with Max. War/Sam, Sam/War, or accept you're a 2nd rate DD~ (don't get me wrong though, Drk has other shit going for it...sleep links, zerg, stun, some other random utility like absorb TP. Though, pretty sure in a straight non-relic parse, drg will beat drk too, flying or not).

Edit:

I will assert, and of course be shouted down for it, that DRG/SAM while not equal to SAM/WAR or WAR/SAM is very close, and when played well the difference is marginal.

I do have the parses in Salvage and on neutral XP camps that indicate this.

I know, I know, I must be the worst player since Feiwong, and I am a gimp noob, etc, etc.

Just mentioned dragoon above, but I agree dragoon is vastly underrated and a strong DD, I'd put drg/sam around mnk/war, both above drk still, but that's just an educated guess. I've definitely gotten to play with some very good dragoons.

[Taruking]

First no one said dual wield axe - it's dual wield - which is Maneater/Ridill almost exclusively.

And this is why you see so many "lolRidill" comments on this forum. People assume instead of looking at facts. Ridill wins in many, many situations.

Jesus, do ppl actually believe Axe/Ridill will outparse Gaxe WAR/SAM?

[Max™]

Drg/Sam is indeed beefy, but then I could also mention atonement Pld's in prolonged high level battles as well, only thing better than a DD that can't miss a 750 dmg weaponskill it spams with a low delay multihit is one that can tank and heal itself while doing so.

[ringthree]

First no one said dual wield axe - it's dual wield - which is Maneater/Ridill almost exclusively.

And this is why you see so many "lolRidill" comments on this forum. People assume instead of looking at facts. Ridill wins in many, many situations.

I concur. In my parses a standard issue Great Axe WAR/SAM is pretty much equal to a standard issue Axe/Ridill WAR/NIN, assuming proper gear and merits for each build. These parses were just on Greater Colibri, so the evidence is definitely not conclusive.

In addition, with the coming of the 99 level cap, assuming that nothing else changes which is a HUGE assumption, a WAR/NIN will have access to another level of Dual Wield and it is a big 10% step in delay reduction, and they will have access to Innin too, which could make anywhere from a very small to a very large difference.

A WAR/SAM will get nothing from their sub as the level cap rises. These subs are very close currently, and I see no indication that with the increase in the cap that /SAM will be able to keep up with the benefits that WAR would get from /NIN. Again, this is just speculation, and is based on the idea that nothing changes, which I find VERY unlikely. A benefit for /SAM could be that as the levels increase the differences in A+ and A- skills widen further (again, if nothing else changes) and again favors /SAM if /NIN has to make compromises in gearing or food.

My point is only that absolutely everything is going to change, so what you think of the best job now could be at the bottom of the pile at 99.

Just imagine, you ding 99, and are super pumped, and then the BST next to you pops a jug to summon a crab the size of Lower Jeuno that promptly eats Fafnir.

[Okan]

Just imagine, you ding 99, and are super pumped, and then the BST next to you pops a jug to summon a crab the size of Lower Jeuno that promptly eats Fafnir.

you have me sold.

[Nightmarelord]

that would make bst useful... and u know se cant have that.

[Baelorn]

Anyway, mostly agree with Max. War/Sam, Sam/War, or accept you're a 2nd rate DD~

You don't consider that broken? An entire damage class broken down into two jobs, both of which subs the other.

You're also ignoring situations where both jobs would be required to /NIN(why is irrelevant so don't try to dodge). If you would argue that that a WAR can keep up due to Axe/Ridill we're talking about a whole other level of gear that needs to be obtained by the WAR while the SAM can keep his standard gear and still do well.

[Raen Ryong]

Reminds me why I quit really. I will never be back to FF while everyone just uses WAR, SAM or some combination of the above without even batting an eyelid. Complete and utter exclusion and nobody sees it as wrong.

[Mohit]

A WAR/SAM will get nothing from their sub as the level cap rises.

They said they have considered making Sekkanoki subbable. That will give /sam a bigger boost for sure.

[Okan]

Also I'd have to imagine that there will not be any super Ridill or Kclub replacement so they will become obsolete all in itself. I highly doubt their off hand damage will be able to produce enough damage to keep up with level 99 needs.

[ringthree]

Just mentioned dragoon above, but I agree dragoon is vastly underrated and a strong DD, I'd put drg/sam around mnk/war, both above drk still, but that's just an educated guess. I've definitely gotten to play with some very good dragoons.

I wish I could say that DRG/SAM is around MNK/WAR but sadly my parses for this combo, and I have a ton of them (my GF is awful proud of her DRG), favors DRG for the most part unless I "cheat" on the parses. And that is on a neutral camp.

There is a chance I am remembering this incorrectly, I might have kept up on GC with /WAR, and was beaten in general as /NIN on neutral camps. I think the thing to remember is that /WAR favors MNK by a ton, but I often found myself taking dirt naps because of a particularly powerful Overthrow or Fang Rush.

If I were to rank the DD as they currently exist based on damage AND utility, I would go: SAM/WAR, WAR/SAM and DRG/SAM for the top three. DRK/SAM is definitely good, but it's "side benefit" of magic just doesn't compare to merited jumps. MNK/NIN is great, and MNK/WAR in terms of sheer damage is equal to the top tier DD's, but the lack of utility makes it essentially worthless outside of XP.

I will say that DRK has a superior relic Aftermath and additional effect to DRG (Gungnir's Aftermath is laughable), and still has access to some of the best gear in the game. So the best of the best DRK can equalize things quite a bit.

[Cratylus]

They said they have considered making Sekkanoki subbable. That will give /sam a bigger boost for sure.

And 2 more str from hasso with the sam sub lvl 49!

[ringthree]

They said they have considered making Sekkanoki subbable. That will give /sam a bigger boost for sure.

Sekkanoki is essentially just 1 WS at the beginning of a fight where you can store TP beforehand. /SAM still only gets 60 TP per meditate, which just makes the next WS come faster. Sekkanoki is also on a 5 minute timer. Sekkanoki really doesn't make that large of a difference because the main benefit is getting extra skillchain damage. I do not know what SC's WAR can self-chain, but if it requires using an inferior WS, then the difference isn't going to be large.

The difference is definitely not going to over come 10% delay reduction or 30% crit.

Edit: I don't think adding in 2 STR is going to over come it either.

I have a feeling that some will reject this claim because of the "anti-elitest" leveling of the playing field that the two-handed update provided to WAR, but in this case, AS THINGS STAND NOW (and they will almost definitely change) the math greatly favors WAR/NIN.

[Red Demon Taoist]

People that are used to playing popular and powerful jobs are often loathe to call one of theirs "broken". I didn't hear too many axeburn wars and rngs talking about being broken back in the day, nor did I hear a lot from osode-sams that still out-DDed everyone else once sams received their happy buffs a few years back.

Come to think of it, blms during the manaburn days and rngs during the arrowburn days were quiet too -- they were just elitists, and never hesitated to segregate.

Regardless, some people will only use whatever is deemed to work "the best" in any given situation. You'll rarely hear them speak of brokeness, just that everyone else needs to "work harder".

Trolling? I don't even...

Stupid bandwagon RNGs never admitted to being overpowered jsut like stupid bandwagon SAMs never admit to being overpowered. They'd rather believe it's just their leet skills.

I think this community's perception of balance is so borked because it's so locked into its FFXI bubble. FFXI has its own rules of balance such as: certain jobs just don't count.

PUP, THF, BST are in the same category as SAM, is that balanced?

SAM outperforms the DDs that do count in the majority of situations, is that balanced? No. That's pretty much the definition of not balanced. Mostly superior.

[Lucavi]

Is it trolling if you're agreeing with it? Maybe I need to open up an E-dictionary...

We know the reasons why people will shout till' they're blue in the face about their flavor-of-the-game job not being broken. It is what it is. I'd rather play a game where at least everyone gets a slice of the pie every now and then, or that you can bring anyone that's geared to the fight.

Hopefully the next incarnation of FF: The Aery will be a little different.

[Karbuncle]

Sekkanoki is essentially just 1 WS at the beginning of a fight where you can store TP beforehand. /SAM still only gets 60 TP per meditate, which just makes the next WS come faster. Sekkanoki is also on a 5 minute timer. Sekkanoki really doesn't make that large of a difference because the main benefit is getting extra skillchain damage. I do not know what SC's WAR can self-chain, but if it requires using an inferior WS, then the difference isn't going to be large.

The difference is definitely not going to over come 10% delay reduction or 30% crit.

Edit: I don't think adding in 2 STR is going to over come it either.

I have a feeling that some will reject this claim because of the "anti-elitest" leveling of the playing field that the two-handed update provided to WAR, but in this case, AS THINGS STAND NOW (and they will almost definitely change) the math greatly favors WAR/NIN.

Almost Positive King's Justice > Steel Cyclone or Vice/versa is a Level 2/3 Skillchain i can't recall