lv99 bitch/speculation/etc thread

[ZhiGaruda]

Earth staff?

Losing all TP everytime you pull hate is hardly an efficient means of negating damage..hence what I said before about RNG lacking PDT gear. SAM/DRK/WAR all get Darksteel, DRK/WAR getting Valhalla, etc.

[ringthree]

Well. Here I thought people would dismiss my hope that war/nin will rise again. I never expected anyone to pull out math to support it. Just about everything will hinge on how much you can upgrade ridill, assuming there isn't a new one added (very unlikely).

I don't care how much pdt you have, it'll never provide near the same level of protection as shadows.

I am of the opinion that mages provide all the PDT I need. PDT sets are for people that have to deal with poor mages. I feel sorry for people that have to use PDT sets.

[Karbuncle]

Thank you for clarifying the SC they could use, I have not used my WAR since before the two handed update.

Sekkanoki provides no additional TP, you will have to sit on the TP you could have used, so the only additional damage from it is in the form of the SC damage. Additionally, Sekkanoki can only be used once every 5 minutes.

There is simply no way that 1 additional SC every five minutes is going to out-damage 10% delay reduction and 30% (though gradually reducing) crit.

Honestly didn't read enough to know the argument was /NIN vs /SAM for WAR >_<

Innin is going to be wonderful for all dual wield jobs, no doubt about that, but in situations where you're not likely to be behind the mob Sekka will still be nice along with the normal SAM benefits!

Also, going from 100% > 200% tp takes the same amount of time from 0% > 100% meaning preforming a Self skillchain from Sekka will only help your damage output, even if its every 5 minutes, and even if its resisted and does like 30 DMG its still 30 more than you would have done non-skill-chaining. Since you still get 2 100% TP weaponskills!

Though its less likely to be useful in Merit/Dynamis/etc situations where mobs die super quick =0

[Massimo]

Losing all TP everytime you pull hate is hardly an efficient means of negating damage..hence what I said before about RNG lacking PDT gear. SAM/DRK/WAR all get Darksteel, DRK/WAR getting Valhalla, etc.

They mean fulltime it/switch to it when you start capping hate. If it was just switching to it when you're about to get hit, RNG would be no different from other DDs, regarding that.

[ZhiGaruda]

They mean fulltime it/switch to it when you start capping hate. If it was just switching to it when you're about to get hit, RNG would be no different from other DDs, regarding that.

So you're really regarding earth/terra's staff as a plausible option for a RNG to DD in? >.>

How would I KClub for TP and spam WS's with Culverin+1 with an earth/terra's staff?

[Xavier]

If you're building tp with a kracken, you could probably afford to switch anyway when everything goes wrong. Of course, losing your tp could be your definition of things going wrong too.

But I get the point. Guess you just have to one shot everything to be safe.

[FailureMidgard]

You don't consider that broken? An entire damage class broken down into two jobs, both of which subs the other.

You're also ignoring situations where both jobs would be required to /NIN(why is irrelevant so don't try to dodge). If you would argue that that a WAR can keep up due to Axe/Ridill we're talking about a whole other level of gear that needs to be obtained by the WAR while the SAM can keep his standard gear and still do well.

White Mage is the best healer in the game. Do you consider that broken?
Black Mage or Scholar are the best nukers in the game. Do you consider that broken?
Red Mage is the best soloer in the game. Do you consider that broken?
Dark Knight is the best zerger in the game. Do you consider that broken?
Summoner and puppetmaster has the least enmity generation for their damage while avoiding everyone AoE. Do you consider that broken?
Paladin, Red Mage, And Ninja are the best disengaged tanks in the game. Do you consider that broken?
Thief is the best at making more items drop in the game. Do you consider that broken?
Bard, Corsair, and Dancer are the best at buffing others in the game, to the point Sam and War aren't even worth bringing if you have 0-1 of these generally. Do you consider that broken?
Blue Mage is the best stunner for DynaTav/Ein type events. Do you consider that broken?

What's that leave? Monk, Dragoon, Ranger, and Beastmaster.
The game has niches, but really, you want a good distribution of jobs. Past that, Drg/Sam and Mnk/war aren't really that far behind sam/war and war/sam. Maybe the level cap raising will help bring those 2 up, no idea, but no, I don't think 2 jobs being the best damage dealers is broken. Dragoon has nice solo options, a few morethanuseful JAs, very good damage on flying mobs, and again, is still a -very- solid DD.

Edit: What's the point of the subjob thing? That sam is getting cheated because every other job has a superior subjob choice to Sam? Yea, /nin hurts war and sam both less than any other DD too. I'm confused, those are the 2 best/purest DD jobs, the do better when not forced to sub nin, and they do better when forced to sub nin. I don't see how having a niche is broken. If I wanted to call anything in this game broken, it would be /nin on the survival/tank/solo front.

Reminds me why I quit really. I will never be back to FF while everyone just uses WAR, SAM or some combination of the above without even batting an eyelid. Complete and utter exclusion and nobody sees it as wrong.

Meh, that's bullshit IMO. DRK is a slightly weaker DD, doesn't mean people don't bring DRKs. We still use DRKs regularly in almost every melee-friendly event, because in the end, a well geared DRK isn't going to be that far behind. Past that, some shit a DRK is better than a sam on...Elemental Tower in Temenos, abusing Absorb-TP is kinda silly, why meditate when you can get 100 free TP every 45 seconds? Ability to help sleep links, Stun every -aga spell, etc. Drk is still useful, you just traded some damage for utility. And of course, you win at zerging.

I wish I could say that DRG/SAM is around MNK/WAR but sadly my parses for this combo, and I have a ton of them (my GF is awful proud of her DRG), favors DRG for the most part unless I "cheat" on the parses. And that is on a neutral camp.

There is a chance I am remembering this incorrectly, I might have kept up on GC with /WAR, and was beaten in general as /NIN on neutral camps. I think the thing to remember is that /WAR favors MNK by a ton, but I often found myself taking dirt naps because of a particularly powerful Overthrow or Fang Rush.

If I were to rank the DD as they currently exist based on damage AND utility, I would go: SAM/WAR, WAR/SAM and DRG/SAM for the top three. DRK/SAM is definitely good, but it's "side benefit" of magic just doesn't compare to merited jumps. MNK/NIN is great, and MNK/WAR in terms of sheer damage is equal to the top tier DD's, but the lack of utility makes it essentially worthless outside of XP.

I will say that DRK has a superior relic Aftermath and additional effect to DRG (Gungnir's Aftermath is laughable), and still has access to some of the best gear in the game. So the best of the best DRK can equalize things quite a bit.

I think Sam gains the most on going to a relic, Drk 2nd, Warrior and Dragoon being a bit behind as their WSes aren't generally worth using. Also, I think you overrate dragoon by a tad, but it is still a strong DD for sure, but I'd still put sam or war ahead of it.

To add a bit more fuel to the fire, I would again like to make an assertion.

RNG is the strongest DD in the game as it currently stands.

They can put constant damage on many mobs that confound melee DDs. They can easily put out so much damage that tanking is impossible. They have access to a 5 hit build, and an amazing selection of gear.

They are so powerful in fact, they are hardly ever allowed to maximize their damage for the sake of the event/fight. I have found it damnably frustrating gearing my RNG because as my gear and damage has improved, I have had to hold back more and more. At what point does improving your RNG actually end up becoming a contradiction in terms?

What? I think RNG is one of the most useless jobs in the game at the moment. :/
They don't benefit from support. They are goddamn amazing if you want to throw them in a party and give them nothing for support, but meh, that's a pretty poor way to go about things. Even fights people like to use rangers on (Odin, DI), a good melee can equal or beat them in damage. Also, holding back is stupid, sub nin and just tank. Then again, having to shoot fucks with shadows, but again, RNG is one of the most useless jobs in the game in my personal opinion. :/

No more polearm ?

Why don't you comment on the fact that none of that is full math. The only point I'm making there is your "25% haste on gear" doesn't really mean much, as you still have less haste than a sam, and in a proper situation your rounds come slower than a GK sams. Pole is obviously slower (or your pachipachio), but it has a 5hit (4 swings), which I'm sure you realize is a benefit.

[Massimo]

So you're really regarding earth/terra's staff as a plausible option for a RNG to DD in? >.>

How would I KClub for TP and spam WS's with Culverin+1 with an earth/terra's staff?

Well the discussion came up regarding HNMs and RNG taking too much hate, so they obviously weren't talking about KClubbin'!

Not saying you should use Terra's though, just explaining what you seemed to not understand. <_<

[Priran]

text

You seem to be missing the point of specialization vs. versatility.

SAM is broken because it's supposed to be (and is) a SC specialist yet still manages to, at worst, match other DDs' parsed damage and has a serviceable method of damage mitigation.

WHM being the best healer isn't broken because it is the only dedicated healer class in the game.

PUP being able to DD without drawing much attention does not make it a useful DD, because the bottom line is that on big mobs, people expect DDs to watch their hate and tanks to not lose it, and on trash mobs it doesn't matter.

[Francisco]

I'll add a few thoughts.

1: MNK/WAR with Counterstance up isn't as terrible as people make it out to be - at some camps. I've done trolls and colibri as such, and never came close to dying. Overthrow and Pecking Flurry seemed to cap out decently low on damage. High accuracy and counter merits probably helped a lot.

That said, I wouldn't suggest MNK/WAR w/ Counterstance on MMJ, Wyverns... and be very careful on troll automatons. The trolls won't kill you, but their puppets sure as hell will.

2: The main thing that keeps MNK from being on par with WAR and SAM is WS damage. Seriously... Asuran Fists is terrible on VT+ mobs. Dragon Kick, Ascetic's Fury and Raging Fists are not any better, except for a very rare spike.

3: I beat SAM/WAR in merits every time. WAR/SAM is much harder to beat. The only SAM who ever outparsed me in merits did so because he was a failtard who would WS with the mob at 1-5% HP, for the sake of the parse.

If I WS with a mob at 1%, it might do 150 damage. If a SAM uses Gekko at 1%, it can still do well over a thousand.

4: Biggest flaw of MNK is poor weaponskill damage/modifiers. If Asuran had a chance for critical hits, things would be a lot more interesting.

[FailureMidgard]

You seem to be missing the point of specialization vs. versatility.

Versatility? Huh? Pld, Rdm, Nin, Whm (a whm/nin can perform well as a melee if the player is intelligent in a dyna/limbus setting), Drg, Drk are all more versatile off the bat. War is at least as versatile as Sam. Mnk falls behind. I'm unsure how to compare to random jobs like summoner.

SAM is broken because it's supposed to be (and is) a SC specialist yet still manages to, at worst, match other DDs' parsed damage and has a serviceable method of damage mitigation.

If that ends up being Sam's niche, I'll quit the job in a heartbeat. Also, I disagree that it is the best at that in any noticeable fashion. A single sam cannot provide constant skillchains solo for anything you may use skillchains on including Lambton, SW-KA, SW-Guivre, Fafnir, etc. 2 DD/sams that understand how the game works can realistically skillchain at the exact same rate as 2 sam/DDs, mainly because BLMs still need MP to burst off of it, and in the end all melee can WS more often than BLMs can MB. Sam is a DD that's nice is in TP management. That includes SCs as a portion, but of course StoreTP (getting a similar hit-build as other DD with a much much faster weapon) and Meditate.

Also, Sam's damage mitigation is unfair to use unless you are comparing to mnk, because every other 2h DD gets it. All sam potentially gets it -5 sec odd the recast timer on 3rd eye. But really, it's pretty silly to bring up Seigan, in my personal opinion.

WHM being the best healer isn't broken because it is the only dedicated healer class in the game.

But Sam being a "skillchain expert" makes it broken, gotcha. So whm is the only dedicated healer...and sam is the only dedicated skillchainer? And we assume the relationship between whm and red mage when it comes to healing is -nothing- like the relationship between warrior or sam and dark knight? Give up healing power for versatility?

PUP being able to DD without drawing much attention does not make it a useful DD, because the bottom line is that on big mobs, people expect DDs to watch their hate and tanks to not lose it, and on trash mobs it doesn't matter.

Disagree, and I'm sure Tsuko will come on my side here. What are big mobs? On Odin, I co-tank with paladins, pull hate and take no damage. Same thing on DI. Don't get me wrong, I don't really think it's a very good niche, but it's a niche nonetheless. Which, is kinda how the sam skillchain thing is...but either way, you're wrong on the watching hate thing, IMO.

[Okan]

I know this doesn't fully apply to Sam because they have a rather unique gear set, but I view anything ad broken if your telling another player of another class they cannot loot an item because it's better for another job-- with extremely rare exceptions that this is okay.

[FailureMidgard]

3: I beat SAM/WAR in merits every time. WAR/SAM is much harder to beat. The only SAM who ever outparsed me in merits did so because he was a failtard who would WS with the mob at 1-5% HP, for the sake of the parse.

If I WS with a mob at 1%, it might do 150 damage. If a SAM uses Gekko at 1%, it can still do well over a thousand.

Bad sams/etc, IMO. Furthermore, I think people harp on the WS at low % too much. First off, sometimes people will crit/etc, and a mob will drop 5% between you hitting your WS macro and it going off, life sucks, etc. Past that though, the goal is exp/hr, and if you have a mob in camp, it's better to WS at 5%, and save a few seconds than it is to swing another 4-5 seconds, potentially miss, potentially have a TP move go off you don't want to deal with, etc. 1% is dumb, 5% really depends on the situation more. Also at times you have meditate ticking, and fuck hitting 200 TP while you spend an extra 3-4 seconds to kill a mob. On the other hand, if there's no new pull in sight, you're better off not WSing even at 20%, but how many players will hold TP in that situation? Most won't...

I know this doesn't fully apply to Sam because they have a rather unique gear set, but I view anything ad broken if your telling another player of another class they cannot loot an item because it's better for another job with extremely rare exceptions.

Eh, that's really subjective/etc, and pretty ignorant on your part IMO. An item with 10str10dex gives more upgrade to a drg than a GK sam, but an item with 11 str gives more to a sam than a drg, please tell me how that works with your definition of broken? Some people want to prioritize the best use for an item, others don't.

[drwaffles]

This argument is ridiculous. SAM being inherently stronger than other DDs in terms of pure damage output isn't broken. If anything in this game can be considered somewhat broken it's RDM/NIN being able to solo things that no other job would last two minutes against, but you don't see anyone complaining about that. Why? I think it's purely down to the sheer amount of e-peen associated with who can do the most damage - people get their feathers ruffled when they're told that their favourite job (i.e. WAR or DRK or DRG or MNK) will never be as powerful as someone else's SAM. Instead of whining about it, why not be happy with what your job can do well? MNK has great survivability; WAR is versatile and shines nicely where /NIN is a necessity; DRK, as Failure has pointed out, has a lot of utility and the ability to do the most damage of any job in the game by far under certain conditions; DRG can do some nice damage, especially on piercing weak mobs, and gains extra survivability from their wyvern.

tl;dr: stop acting like bratty children, pure damage output is not the be-all and end-all. Seeing Raen Ryong or whatever it is actually quit the game over his DRK not being able to keep up with WARs and SAMs tickles me no end.

[Kyte]

This argument is ridiculous. SAM being inherently stronger than other DDs in terms of pure damage output isn't broken. If anything in this game can be considered somewhat broken it's RDM/NIN being able to solo things that no other job would last two minutes against, but you don't see anyone complaining about that. Why? I think it's purely down to the sheer amount of e-peen associated with who can do the most damage - people get their feathers ruffled when they're told that their favourite job (i.e. WAR or DRK or DRG or MNK) will never be as powerful as someone else's SAM. Instead of whining about it, why not be happy with what your job can do well? MNK has great survivability;

And SAM doesn't.......? MNK's survivability is no longer a distinguishing feature.

[Raen Ryong]

I never met a single WAR or SAM who could outdamage my DRK because I've always been far more obsessive over increasing my damage output than the people I played with. I just quit because I was never allowed to play because all they wanted was WARs or SAMs. It doesn't matter how close your damage output is if you're not allowed to play the game!

EDIT: Basically, I was sick of throwing money at the game just to have other people dictate whether I could play or not. Sounds like mine is an isolated case from people I speak to though, which is good. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[FailureMidgard]

I never met a single WAR or SAM who could outdamage my DRK because I've always been far more obsessive over increasing my damage output than the people I played with. I just quit because I was never allowed to play because all they wanted was WARs or SAMs. It doesn't matter how close your damage output is if you're not allowed to play the game!

EDIT: Basically, I was sick of throwing money at the game just to have other people dictate whether I could play or not. Sounds like mine is an isolated case from people I speak to though, which is good. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Sounds like you had a shitty shell. I'll make fun of DRKs, and maybe if I were trying to 12 man EinT3, I would try to get only War/Sam and Sam/War, more realistically I'd try to only get relic DD though anyway, but that's neither here nor there, and completely irrelevant. A good DD is a good DD, and more than anything else, I would -always- take a good DRK or MNK over a bad Sam or bad War. And again, you bring other things to the table, stun being a huge benefit almost everywhere besides merits.

Also, I generally agree with waffles here, though also agree he's overrating mnk's survivability a little? But counterstance for Ichi casts is hot~

[drwaffles]

And SAM doesn't.......? MNK's survivability is no longer a distinguishing feature.

A SAM going balls-to-the-walls? Not really. MNKs have native Subtle Blow, Counterstance and more -PDT available (Black Belt), as well as easily-attainable 25% Haste for Utsusemi recasts if subbing NIN. Third Eye doesn't beat that out, certainly not in my experience.

Edit: MNK can also hit very good evasion rates, especially with Dodge up. Their JAs such as Chi Blast (with Penance) and Chakra (with Invigorate especially) also help to enhance their survivability. Of course a lot of the time the best defence is a good offence, and so SAM's ability to mow through shit more quickly kind of negates this, but certainly in prolonged fights you should see MNKs taking noticeably less damage overall.

[ringthree]

I never met a single WAR or SAM who could outdamage my DRK because I've always been far more obsessive over increasing my damage output than the people I played with. I just quit because I was never allowed to play because all they wanted was WARs or SAMs. It doesn't matter how close your damage output is if you're not allowed to play the game!

EDIT: Basically, I was sick of throwing money at the game just to have other people dictate whether I could play or not. Sounds like mine is an isolated case from people I speak to though, which is good. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Pretty sure this is just a whine, not an argument about the quality of SAM, WAR or DRK.

I agree with Failure. Good players are more important than the job for the most part.

[Lucavi]

Sounds like you had a shitty shell. I'll make fun of DRKs, and maybe if I were trying to 12 man EinT3, I would try to get only War/Sam and Sam/War, more realistically I'd try to only get relic DD though anyway, but that's neither here nor there, and completely irrelevant. A good DD is a good DD, and more than anything else, I would -always- take a good DRK or MNK over a bad Sam or bad War. And again, you bring other things to the table, stun being a huge benefit almost everywhere besides merits.

That sounds all nice and rosy, but Nobody is pugging Ein, and no "BG-worthy" shell is having shitty DDs in the shell anyway, so odds are you aren't partying with shitty people much at all, which means that you wouldn't need a Drk anyway as the people you'd be playing with would be good LSmates using Sams and Wars.

This isn't some other game where pugging is commonplace: the majority of events in FFXI are done through a small group of friends, done solo, or done through a linkshell filled with skilled people. The odds of interacting with so-called "shitty" wars, mnks or sams is limited to campaign and other trivial nonsense.

The man has a point - jobs that aren't war and sam tend to get the shit end of the stick.