lv99 bitch/speculation/etc thread

[Raen Ryong]

The quality of WAR and SAM causes people to overlook the other melees and the majority of people are unwilling to take risks (if WAR and SAM are meant to always beat DRK or DRG or what have you, why take a risk?) and so what happens eventually is that you cause people not playing these jobs to be unable to play - in FF grouping is mandatory for a lot of content especially if you are a DD, and if the group decides not to allow your certain DD... you can get completely denied.

A whine? Yes. However, this happens: whitegate shouts for missions etc/exp parties/even setups most good endgame shells use reflect this. Being discriminated against purely because of your job which is still a very powerful job is a very demoralising experience.

EDIT: Of course, there are good leaders such as Failure who will overlook this - perhaps my experience has just made me cynical, but I find this is a great rarity, both among your humble mission/merit/exp party leader and extending to your HNMLS leader. With the exp grind continuing soon while requiring you to be on the job you are exping, these disadvantages may become more apparent again.

[Lucavi]

The quality of WAR and SAM causes people to overlook the other melees and the majority of people are unwilling to take risks (if WAR and SAM are meant to always beat DRK or DRG or what have you, why take a risk?) and so what happens eventually is that you cause people not playing these jobs to be unable to play - in FF grouping is mandatory for a lot of content especially if you are a DD, and if the group decides not to allow your certain DD... you can get completely denied.

A whine? Yes. However, this happens: whitegate shouts for missions etc/exp parties/even setups most good endgame shells use reflect this. Being discriminated against purely because of your job which is still a very powerful job is a very demoralising experience.

EDIT: Of course, there are good leaders such as Failure who will overlook this - perhaps my experience has just made me cynical, but I find this is a great rarity, both among your humble mission/merit/exp party leader and extending to your HNMLS leader. With the exp grind continuing soon while requiring you to be on the job you are exping, these disadvantages may become more apparent again.

Failure has a Sam sig - I doubt he understands the demoralization enough to really comment on it other than through fallacy and best-case scenarios.

Just like when I was forced to wake up to the "truth" about botting, and how, as much as I strove to keep my hands clean of it, it was happening without me knowing about it in my shell, Failure's gotta realize that this shit happens, happens often, and shouldn't happen, but ultimately will. These aren't isolated fucking events, its just that the majority of people that refused to put up with that bullshit have already quit the game, so all that's left are people willing to play whatever's the most broken or whatever the LS demands that they bring.

[drwaffles]

Whine.

Again, you should be blaming the people you associate with for being idiots, not the game's design.

[Priran]

If that ends up being Sam's niche, I'll quit the job in a heartbeat. Also, I disagree that it is the best at that in any noticeable fashion. A single sam cannot provide constant skillchains solo for anything you may use skillchains on including Lambton, SW-KA, SW-Guivre, Fafnir, etc. 2 DD/sams that understand how the game works can realistically skillchain at the exact same rate as 2 sam/DDs, mainly because BLMs still need MP to burst off of it, and in the end all melee can WS more often than BLMs can MB. Sam is a DD that's nice is in TP management. That includes SCs as a portion, but of course StoreTP (getting a similar hit-build as other DD with a much much faster weapon) and Meditate.

No doubt that if SAM stops being overpowered you'll quit playing it, that's the definition of flavor of the month.

"Ends up" SAM's niche? It's SAM's intended niche, the reason it's OP is because it fills this niche and then goes and fills some other niches better than jobs who can't fill anything else.

Also, Sam's damage mitigation is unfair to use unless you are comparing to mnk, because every other 2h DD gets it. All sam potentially gets it -5 sec odd the recast timer on 3rd eye. But really, it's pretty silly to bring up Seigan, in my personal opinion.

an overpowered main isn't less overpowered because it's an overpowered sub too.

But Sam being a "skillchain expert" makes it broken, gotcha. So whm is the only dedicated healer...and sam is the only dedicated skillchainer? And we assume the relationship between whm and red mage when it comes to healing is -nothing- like the relationship between warrior or sam and dark knight? Give up healing power for versatility?

For the relationship between WHM and other mages to be like the one between SAM and other DDs, WHM would need to keep all its current spells, get the Banish line up to V so they could hang with BLMs, and get an enmity dump skill.

Disagree, and I'm sure Tsuko will come on my side here. What are big mobs? On Odin, I co-tank with paladins, pull hate and take no damage. Same thing on DI. Don't get me wrong, I don't really think it's a very good niche, but it's a niche nonetheless. Which, is kinda how the sam skillchain thing is...but either way, you're wrong on the watching hate thing, IMO.

the face is in my palm

[Yugl]

Again, you should be blaming the people you associate with for being idiots, not the game's design.

Why do people only want SAMs and WARs? Why couldn't they have said they only want PUPs and SMNs for DD?

[Lucavi]

^ Yeah, it has nothing to do with game design. Its everyone's fault that they want the two best-designed physical DD jobs in the history of the game. Society, who didn't design the game, but are forced to contend with its rules, is clearly to blame on this one. Just another failure of the social stratification of life.

[Raen Ryong]

Failure has a Sam sig - I doubt he understands the demoralization enough to really comment on it other than through fallacy and best-case scenarios.

While he may not have experienced it firsthand, he is still in a position of leadership and willing to let other DDs play. I don't think you can really ask for much more than that. He could just take the stance I was familiar with: "level WAR or SAM if you want to DD".

[Lucavi]

While he may not have experienced it firsthand, he is still in a position of leadership and willing to let other DDs play. I don't think you can really ask for much more than that. He could just take the stance I was familiar with: "level WAR or SAM if you want to DD".

I was a LS leader, but that wouldn't have qualified me unless I had experienced it first-hand. You can be empathetic, but still not understand fully until it happens to you, and seriously, it has never, -ever- happened to sams on a large scale.

[azagarth]

nah its very hyped up from the masses. You place top tier mnk/drk/war/sam/drg side by side in a meripo not piercing weak and it will be pretty close.

The huge difference lies in the less than stellar dds.... thats where a gimpy mnk/drk/drg really fall behind and a war will be able to easily cap acc majority of time, and sam will be able to pump out still a ton of ws's. The benefits of both bergressor/meditate really take a dive as you get good dds who naturally cap acc, and rock so much haste that med isnt going to really impact ws #s to much (since often you will overshoot swining so fast).

[FailureMidgard]

That sounds all nice and rosy, but Nobody is pugging Ein, and no "BG-worthy" shell is having shitty DDs in the shell anyway, so odds are you aren't partying with shitty people much at all, which means that you wouldn't need a Drk anyway as the people you'd be playing with would be good LSmates using Sams and Wars.

This isn't some other game where pugging is commonplace: the majority of events in FFXI are done through a small group of friends, done solo, or done through a linkshell filled with skilled people. The odds of interacting with so-called "shitty" wars, mnks or sams is limited to campaign and other trivial nonsense.

The man has a point - jobs that aren't war and sam tend to get the shit end of the stick.

What does this have to do with pugging? As I type this, I'm in a Limbus run personally with a DRK. In no way do I expect him to be able to outparse me (relic/etc on top of being a sam), but he can stun shit, still does damage, and really can still take hate occasionally if I whiff a WS/take a hit/etc. Would a Sam or War make the run 2 min faster? Sure, but I don't really give a fuck. Could I solo DD it? Probably, but a DRK can too? Maybe easier since he could stun -agas and such.

The quality of WAR and SAM causes people to overlook the other melees and the majority of people are unwilling to take risks (if WAR and SAM are meant to always beat DRK or DRG or what have you, why take a risk?) and so what happens eventually is that you cause people not playing these jobs to be unable to play - in FF grouping is mandatory for a lot of content especially if you are a DD, and if the group decides not to allow your certain DD... you can get completely denied.

A whine? Yes. However, this happens: whitegate shouts for missions etc/exp parties/even setups most good endgame shells use reflect this. Being discriminated against purely because of your job which is still a very powerful job is a very demoralising experience.

EDIT: Of course, there are good leaders such as Failure who will overlook this - perhaps my experience has just made me cynical, but I find this is a great rarity, both among your humble mission/merit/exp party leader and extending to your HNMLS leader. With the exp grind continuing soon while requiring you to be on the job you are exping, these disadvantages may become more apparent again.

Whitegate shouts are dumb and don't even care about good. They think an Ace's is better than a Turban too, so who cares, fuck em.

Failure has a Sam sig - I doubt he understands the demoralization enough to really comment on it other than through fallacy and best-case scenarios.

Just like when I was forced to wake up to the "truth" about botting, and how, as much as I strove to keep my hands clean of it, it was happening without me knowing about it in my shell, Failure's gotta realize that this shit happens, happens often, and shouldn't happen, but ultimately will. These aren't isolated fucking events, its just that the majority of people that refused to put up with that bullshit have already quit the game, so all that's left are people willing to play whatever's the most broken or whatever the LS demands that they bring.

You're stupid, I'm not saying people dont discriminate against Drks. I'm saying intelligent people realize what job is better where, and also realize that a good DRK is far far better than a bad SAM. I'm not saying it's not demoralizing etc, but I've been in plenty of demoralizing situations - such as just being in a shell like that, where people are too stupid to realize well, anything.

No doubt that if SAM stops being overpowered you'll quit playing it, that's the definition of flavor of the month.

This isn't even a strawman argument, it's the exact opposite of what I said. I already prefer to not go Sam to random shit where a sams job is to "not feed TP and SC". That shit is mind numbing, boring, and more 2boxable than TH tagging a mob.

"Ends up" SAM's niche? It's SAM's intended niche, the reason it's OP is because it fills this niche and then goes and fills some other niches better than jobs who can't fill anything else.

No, it only fills that niche for people that don't understand the game, or are so deathly scared of feeding TP to a mob that they probably have flat out terrible support. Want a skillchain? Your warrior has a 6hit build, your drk has a 6hit build. I don't want to fucking sit there and meditate, then WS once every 3 minutes to SC. Futhermore, I don't even want to sit there and wait to 200 TP just so the blms are ready to MB. It's boring and stupid, and not a niche at all. Past that, again, any DD can do it fine, and it's not even much of a benefit outside of fucking SW-KA

an overpowered main isn't less overpowered because it's an overpowered sub too.

It is when you try to quote Seigan, and ignore the fact that -every- 2h DD has seigan.

For the relationship between WHM and other mages to be like the one between SAM and other DDs, WHM would need to keep all its current spells, get the Banish line up to V so they could hang with BLMs, and get an enmity dump skill.

No, not really. Whm outparses everyone on healing done, yet a red mage is still a passable healer, as is a scholar. The argument you just made is more like what a dragoon would be - good damage, and a pretty amazing healer to boot.

See, there's the 1 aspect being compared (dmg for DD, healing for healers), then utility past that (sleep, stun, debuff, CSS/zerg). It's a pretty fucking accurate comparison, if you make me, except rdm utility is a bit past that of DRK, obviously.

the face is in my palm

Don't believe me? Want me to post some defensive stats from DI/Odin/SW-Serket/etc? I will if you'd like.

[FailureMidgard]

While he may not have experienced it firsthand, he is still in a position of leadership and willing to let other DDs play. I don't think you can really ask for much more than that. He could just take the stance I was familiar with: "level WAR or SAM if you want to DD".

If someone tries to come BST, I'll probably punch them, but Sam, War, Mnk, Drg, Drk I'm fine with, and we have regularly. I won't lie and say we have more of them than sam and war, but I think that's because a lot of people level sam and war themselves when they see it parsing better...

Also, I do have experience with it. Go try to get a merit invite on a white mage. You know how many fucking idiots out there think a whm needs resting breaks to keep up because bad ones can't keep up? Fuck. Whm was my first 75, and was the job I got most my sam's merits on 'cause I felt bad going Sam when I had few merits in it. Was back before /sch and the whm update, but even then, I could and did keep up when I got invites. But I got turned down from merit parties, shout assaults, even nyzul runs later on when a group was 5/6 and wanted a healer only. Stupid people are stupid~

[Yugl]

nah its very hyped up from the masses. You place top tier mnk/drk/war/sam/drg side by side in a meripo not piercing weak and it will be pretty close.

The huge difference lies in the less than stellar dds.... thats where a gimpy mnk/drk/drg really fall behind and a war will be able to easily cap acc majority of time, and sam will be able to pump out still a ton of ws's. The benefits of both bergressor/meditate really take a dive as you get good dds who naturally cap acc, and rock so much haste that med isnt going to really impact ws #s to much (since often you will overshoot swining so fast).

That's exactly the point. If it were anything but the mechanics difference (i.e. gear, player skill, or some other feature), we would see the level of difference skyrocket as other aspects of the game came into focus. For instance, if it were merely that SAM and WAR had access to better gear than the other classes, the difference would appear once all classes are decked out even more so than at the "Gimp" level. However, the fact is that these differences are most distinct at the "Gimp" level. This gives us two ideas to work with:

1. The gear at the gimp level heavily favors SAM and WAR more than other classes (Arguably so, but DRK and MNK come close on any such scale)
2. The mechanics of both SAM and WAR enable them to output more DMG

Edit: Earlier it was asked whether there's a problem with RDM being the best soloer. I believe there is a problem when you consider the fact that it leaves BST with nothing.

[FailureMidgard]

Edit: Earlier it was asked whether there's a problem with RDM being the best soloer. I believe there is a problem when you consider the fact that it leaves BST with nothing.

I'll agree with that, but I think rdm/nin (and as I said, Utsu in general) is the only truly broken thing in this game.

[Priran]

text

You're saying SAM main doesn't need to stay confined to its original niche anymore because SAM sub gives other 2H DDs such a boost, SAM main's niche becomes obsolete. Plus, Seigan only means 2H DDs can go nuts on the strongest mobs in the game with no repercussions. And somehow, you conclude that this means SAM is not overpowered.

I'm surprised you can get an internet connection out there in la la land

[FailureMidgard]

You're saying SAM main doesn't need to stay confined to its original niche anymore because SAM sub gives other 2H DDs such a boost, SAM main's niche becomes obsolete. Plus, Seigan only means 2H DDs can go nuts on the strongest mobs in the game with no repercussions. And somehow, you conclude that this means SAM is not overpowered.

I'm surprised you can get an internet connection out there in la la land

What? You're getting things seriously confused. To start with, even if you get a 7hit build, you can still skillchain as fast as any black mage could want it, and a solo Sam still can't do shit for skillchains, can do it a whole once per 5 minutes, wowowow.
Facts:
-SC+MB is less damage than meleeing every single mob in the game except for Turtles and SW-KA.
-If you want constant SCs, you need 2 people. 2 Sams is flat out -not- superior to 2 Wars or 2 Drks for this. I'd actually prefer a Drk since they can heal themself and Stun on top of SCing just as often...

Is Seigan overpowered? Sure, maybe, but it's pretty stupid to say that it's a sam only ability. It's like calling white mage overpowered for having erase. Guess what though? Bards, corsairs, red mages, and black mages all regularly have the spell. Game balance is based around what is available to 1 job and not others. You can quote Seigan as overpowered in reference to monks, but that is 2h vs 1h, not Sam vs Mnk. You're delusional to look at the abilities gained in the job while ignoring the fact that subjobs exist. I honestly don't understand how you can make that argument.

Also, no, Seigan doesn't let you do that. I mean, I'm all for /dd most the time, but /dd from my experience, will get you destroyed by a lot of stronger NMs. I /nin to SW-Serket, DI, Odin, and the like and yes, I fully agree with you that Utsusemi is overpowered and broken.

[AidenCarby]

Dragoon is good for Dark Ixion as well, just putting it out there.

[Priran]

What? You're getting things seriously confused. To start with, even if you get a 7hit build, you can still skillchain as fast as any black mage could want it, and a solo Sam still can't do shit for skillchains, can do it a whole once per 5 minutes, wowowow.

Implying you can't self-SC without sekkanoki? lol

Facts:
-SC+MB is less damage than meleeing every single mob in the game except for Turtles and SW-KA.
-If you want constant SCs, you need 2 people. 2 Sams is flat out -not- superior to 2 Wars or 2 Drks for this. I'd actually prefer a Drk since they can heal themself and Stun on top of SCing just as often...

you seem to be confused about what I'm arguing. I'm not saying that SAMs, with the game like it is, should be SCing. I'm saying that because of SE's choice to leave the "buff SAM" button in the care of a dippy bird during the ToAU era, SAM is overpowered to the point where bitching about 75+ H2H skill affecting DMG rating just sounds like people are upset they might have to jump on a new bandwagon.

also, lol. you argue NIN sub is overpowered when SAM sub is not even though almost everyone that can make use of SAM sub stopped using NIN sub long ago

[FailureMidgard]

Implying you can't self-SC without sekkanoki? lol

We obviously can, but not really in any situation when you want skillchains. It requires either decent support - which a sam rarely gets on turtle-mobs and other shit that melee dmg is bad on - or a Soboro, which is still so far from overpowered, it doesn't matter. Furthermore, Warriors can self Skillchain with their gimp-shit Soboro too, so don't act like it's something special that Sams can do. Any Kraken DD can, etc. Face it, skillchaining is not a Samurai strength.

you seem to be confused about what I'm arguing. I'm not saying that SAMs, with the game like it is, should be SCing. I'm saying that because of SE's choice to leave the "buff SAM" button in the care of a dippy bird during the ToAU era, SAM is ubiquitous at endgame.

The only reason for this is due to the strength of YGK on high defense targets and dumb players unable to realize that other jobs have similar options. For high defense targets, you need pDIF boost WSes, or crit WSes. Dark Knight (Greatsword), Warrior, and Dragoon can all do PERFECTLY FINE on these mobs. Just a bunch of ignorant players don't realize this. That isn't SE's fault, nor does it make Samurai overpowered.

also, lol. you argue NIN sub is overpowered when SAM sub is not even though almost everyone that can make use of SAM sub stopped using NIN sub long ago

Straw Man, again? I said Utsusemi is overpowered, and Seigan is not overpowered. PLEASE fucking tell me that is the only thing these subjobs offer, so I can just stop talking to you. If that was all the subjobs offered, then obviously nobody would sub sam. Is sub Sam overpowered? Perhaps so, but that does -not- imply Sam is overpowered, unless you first remove sub Sam. Overpowered is a relative thing, when 2 different jobs have the same ability, you can't use a common ability to call 1 overpowered. Hasso may very well be overpowered, but that does NOT translate to Samurai, as a main job, being overpowered, because all of Sam's competition has access to the same ability.

[Yugl]

DRG doesn't get any pDIF move except Wheeling Thrust (And it doesn't actually get a boost; it's just that the description says "Ignores some DEF"). All DRGs know Wheeling Thrust is trash. Our Critical hit move is available, but the fact that our gear selection is limited prevents us from taking advantage of said critical hits (NO BYAKKOS?!).

Edit: To put this in perspective, a top tier geared Elvaan can only land enough DEX to cap critical hit rates on Colibri and 1-2 Mamools. Anything higher and it quickly declines to almost nothing.

[Priran]

Straw Man, again? I said Utsusemi is overpowered, and Seigan is not overpowered. PLEASE fucking tell me that is the only thing these subjobs offer, so I can just stop talking to you. If that was all the subjobs offered, then obviously nobody would sub sam. Is sub Sam overpowered? Perhaps so, but that does -not- imply Sam is overpowered, unless you first remove sub Sam. Overpowered is a relative thing, when 2 different jobs have the same ability, you can't use a common ability to call 1 overpowered.
Hasso may very well be overpowered, but that does NOT translate to Samurai, as a main job, being overpowered, because all of Sam's competition has access to the same ability.

For every job you've mentioned so far (SAM, DRK, WAR, DRG, and MNK) /NIN is only used for Utsusemi (I haven't seen a DW WAR in ages). And if Utsusemi is the only thing /NIN gives, and Utsusemi is OP, then /NIN must be OP, which then begs the question why everyone who can is using /SAM instead. Please tell me you're trying to change the subject to tanks and soloing, so I can stop talking to you.

I guess you could say all of SAM's competition has access to Hasso, in that SAM makes 2H so OP that anyone who can't use it doesn't qualify as "competition". I still don't see how you're interpreting that as "SAM isn't OP".