lv99 bitch/speculation/etc thread

[Lucavi]

It doesn't, simple as that.

And Failure, it makes no sense to call someone stupid if you're agreeing with them that the rampant discrimination is bullshit, and agreeing that Sams and Wars can shorten a run through an end-game event compared to a drk.

If you're going to call me out for having some sort of lack of intelligence, you shouldn't also agree with my points in the same post.

[Thunder]

SAM isn't OP because, as it has been said: SAM(#1DD/tank) ~= WAR(#1DD/tank) ~= DRK(<#1DD/tank/spells that make it a better tank than SAM or WAR in some fights while always adding stun utility) ~= DRG(<#1DD/unique soloing and utility in smaller fights like merits) ~= MNK(<#1DD/tank with counterstance, etc, etc).

It all, more or less, evens out. There HAS to be 'the best' DD around but in no way is SAM blowing drk, drg, mnk, etc out of the water like some people are saying.

I think this sums it up best:

This argument is ridiculous. SAM being inherently stronger than other DDs in terms of pure damage output isn't broken. If anything in this game can be considered somewhat broken it's RDM/NIN being able to solo things that no other job would last two minutes against, but you don't see anyone complaining about that. Why? I think it's purely down to the sheer amount of e-peen associated with who can do the most damage - people get their feathers ruffled when they're told that their favourite job (i.e. WAR or DRK or DRG or MNK) will never be as powerful as someone else's SAM. Instead of whining about it, why not be happy with what your job can do well? MNK has great survivability; WAR is versatile and shines nicely where /NIN is a necessity; DRK, as Failure has pointed out, has a lot of utility and the ability to do the most damage of any job in the game by far under certain conditions; DRG can do some nice damage, especially on piercing weak mobs, and gains extra survivability from their wyvern.

tl;dr: stop acting like bratty children, pure damage output is not the be-all and end-all.

[Priran]

It doesn't, simple as that.

yeah I remember the last time someone stuck a PUP, THF, DW WAR, BLU, or MNK in a DD slot when they had spare 2-handers

it was called 2006

[FailureMidgard]

For every job you've mentioned so far (SAM, DRK, WAR, DRG, and MNK) /NIN is only used for Utsusemi (I haven't seen a DW WAR in ages).

Because that's what it is in todays game. Want to know other jobs that use /nin? Rdm? Pld? You realize it's what makes the entire game as it is now viable? You realize that there are times DD will get completely and utter destroyed without /nin?

And if Utsusemi is the only thing /NIN gives, and Utsusemi is OP, then /NIN must be OP, which then begs the question why everyone who can is using /SAM instead. Please tell me you're trying to change the subject to tanks and soloing, so I can stop talking to you.

Really, you just made the same error again after I called you out on it?

If 5 is the highest prime factor of 30, and 7 is the highest prime factor of 14, 7>5 doesn't mean that 14 > 30. Just because Utsusemi is more overpowered than Seigan, in NO WAY implies that /nin is more overpowered than /sam. They have *gasp* different uses. If you care about survival and survival alone, /nin is the only real choice. If survival is not an issue, then yes, /sam is the default subjob.

I guess you could say all of SAM's competition has access to Hasso, in that SAM makes 2H so OP that anyone who can't use it doesn't qualify as "competition". I still don't see how you're interpreting that as "SAM isn't OP".

Hasso is overpowered. This is available to everyone who subs Sam. It does not make "Samurai as a main job" overpowered. You need to stop associating a part of a job that people get from subjob with the main job. Yes, Hasso is a part of Sam, but that doesn't make the job in endgame overpowered. It makes the ability, and anyone with access to the ability overpowered - Sam, Drg, Drk, War. How can you not get this difference? If you want to nerf Hasso because it's overpowered, fine, but that's different than going and nerfing Samurai, or buffing every job but Samurai. Do you really not get this distinction?

[FailureMidgard]

It doesn't, simple as that.

And Failure, it makes no sense to call someone stupid if you're agreeing with them that the rampant discrimination is bullshit, and agreeing that Sams and Wars can shorten a run through an end-game event compared to a drk.

If you're going to call me out for having some sort of lack of intelligence, you shouldn't also agree with my points in the same post.

I agree there is rampant discrimination there, I think you're stupid for thinking I don't realize it's there, and I think anyone is stupid for trying to imply that because unintelligent whitegate shout groups only want a sam, it must be overpowered. May I ask why I am not allowed to agree with 1 point while disagreeing with another? Separate points are being made. Such as 1 being that discrimination happens, and 1 being that because I have a sam sig, I've never been on the receiving end of it? Really?

[Xavier]

The only reason so many of you think SAM is broken is because you judge the entire game based on how quickly you can kill birds in a merit party.

[Tulun]

Isn't one of the reasons SAM Is so well off compared to other DD is because they don't lose as much subbing /nin? Other DD take a bigger hit but sam still maintains Hasso, easy 6 hit, and a good damage output with Y/G/K regardless of sub.

I always thought SAM mostly trumped other DD when other DD had to pussy out to survive.

[FailureMidgard]

Isn't one of the reasons SAM Is so well off compared to other DD is because they don't lose as much subbing /nin? Other DD take a bigger hit but sam still maintains Hasso, easy 6 hit, and a good damage output with Y/G/K regardless of sub.

I always thought SAM mostly trumped other DD when other DD had to pussy out to survive.

Change that to sam and proper dual wield/ridill wars, and sure. Sam and War both do much better than drg or drk when having to sub nin, because the others are more reliant on /sam.

[Priran]

Really, you just made the same error again after I called you out on it?

If 5 is the highest prime factor of 30, and 7 is the highest prime factor of 14, 7>5 doesn't mean that 14 > 30. Just because Utsusemi is more overpowered than Seigan, in NO WAY implies that /nin is more overpowered than /sam. They have *gasp* different uses. If you care about survival and survival alone, /nin is the only real choice. If survival is not an issue, then yes, /sam is the default subjob.

/NIN isn't even OP when it comes to defensive subjobs, /DNC is better for a lot of things, and DRG has even more SJ options. When it comes to defense, there are options. When it comes to offense, there's only SAM.

Hasso is overpowered. This is available to everyone who subs Sam. It does not make "Samurai as a main job" overpowered. You need to stop associating a part of a job that people get from subjob with the main job. Yes, Hasso is a part of Sam, but that doesn't make the job in endgame overpowered. It makes the ability, and anyone with access to the ability overpowered - Sam, Drg, Drk, War. How can you not get this difference? If you want to nerf Hasso because it's overpowered, fine, but that's different than going and nerfing Samurai, or buffing every job but Samurai. Do you really not get this distinction?

I think the problem here is that you haven't used a non-2hander DD job in so long you forgot they exist

[jimbobsonofgod]

The only reason so many of you think SAM is broken is because you judge the entire game based on how quickly you can kill birds in a merit party.

Well the flip side to that coin is you spend more time killing birds in an exp party then you do with a Claimed Tiamat,Dark Ixion, Sandworm,Fafhog,Khimaira combined.

[FailureMidgard]

/NIN isn't even OP when it comes to defensive subjobs, /DNC is better for a lot of things, and DRG has even more SJ options. When it comes to defense, there are options. When it comes to offense, there's only SAM.

. . .right, for random bullshit. Go see how you fare tanking any HNMish fight as /dnc, get back to me.

I think the problem here is that you haven't used a non-2hander DD job in so long you forgot they exist

? I admitted that mnk/war and drg/sam are very close in damage, but hey, when you can't reply with a valid point, attack the person. Nerfing Hasso will in fact help out every non-2h job, or do you not realize that? Are you going to ignore everything else? Really?

If they want to nerf Hasso, again, I fully understand it, but nerfing Sam or Buffing every non-Sam DD (2h or not) is not solving the problem, and it is not balancing anything. Hasso is the -only- overpowered aspect of 2handed DDs, and it is an aspect of every 2handed DD, not just Sam. I think the problem is you can't grasp this, or just refuse to admit the truth - that you are wrong.

[Xavier]

Well the flip side to that coin is you spend more time killing birds in an exp party then you do with a Claimed Tiamat,Dark Ixion, Sandworm,Fafhog,Khimaira combined.

Touche.

[Neosutra]

? I admitted that mnk/war and drg/sam are very close in damage, but hey, when you can't reply with a valid point, attack the person. Nerfing Hasso will in fact help out every non-2h job, or do you not realize that? Are you going to ignore everything else? Really?

How could you have played the game this long and not figured out that nerfing one job doesnt help another job get stronger. Breaking the knees of the star quaterback so the fat kid can get a chance to play doesnt make the fat kid play any better, it just makes you lose your star quarterback.

If they want to nerf Hasso, again, I fully understand it, but nerfing Sam or Buffing every non-Sam DD (2h or not) is not solving the problem, and it is not balancing anything. Hasso is the -only- overpowered aspect of 2handed DDs, and it is an aspect of every 2handed DD, not just Sam. I think the problem is you can't grasp this, or just refuse to admit the truth - that you are wrong.

Buffing 1 handers to be similar damage to 2 handers does help, as then your decision on 2h/1h melees is based on what unique skills those jobs bring, and not just damage output. I dont think every job in the game needs to be the same damage, and quite frankly I think most jobs have pretty good balance in the game (my thf doesnt do the damage of my mnk, but it has different uses, hate management, and TH, as well as nice soloing ability).

This is a retarded debate regardless, as we dont know what the update/lvl cap will bring. Another couple tiers of DW as well as new job traits, h2h skill damage boost, and 2hander JAs and we will have to really examine the job balance again.

Why are people getting so butthurt about this?

[AidenCarby]

Breaking the knees of the star quaterback so the fat kid can get a chance to play doesnt make the fat kid play any better, it just makes you lose your star quarterback.

LMFAO

[Priran]

. . .right, for random bullshit. Go see how you fare tanking any HNMish fight as /dnc, get back to me.

go see how you fare tanking any HNMish fight as a DD/NIN, get back to me

? I admitted that mnk/war and drg/sam are very close in damage, but hey, when you can't reply with a valid point, attack the person. Nerfing Hasso will in fact help out every non-2h job, or do you not realize that? Are you going to ignore everything else? Really?

If they want to nerf Hasso, again, I fully understand it, but nerfing Sam or Buffing every non-Sam DD (2h or not) is not solving the problem, and it is not balancing anything. Hasso is the -only- overpowered aspect of 2handed DDs, and it is an aspect of every 2handed DD, not just Sam. I think the problem is you can't grasp this, or just refuse to admit the truth - that you are wrong.

Yeah, you're right and the devs who say that 76-99 will be a game of "catch up to SAM" for the DDs are wrong.

The problem can be entirely solved by buffing other jobs so that there is something better than SAM to sub. Talk about the inability to grasp a concept

[drwaffles]

go see how you fare tanking any HNMish fight as a DD/NIN, get back to me

You lose.

[Priran]

either your definition of "tank" or "HNM" is broad to the point of meaninglessness or PLDs/RDMs are out of a job

[Yugl]

either your definition of "tank" or "HNM" is broad to the point of meaninglessness or PLDs/RDMs are out of a job

That's pretty much how it is. SAMs and DRKs tend to tank mobs in which heavy melee is a viable means of keeping hate. RDM/NIN is used for mobs otherwise.

[FailureMidgard]

How could you have played the game this long and not figured out that nerfing one job doesnt help another job get stronger. Breaking the knees of the star quaterback so the fat kid can get a chance to play doesnt make the fat kid play any better, it just makes you lose your star quarterback.

It helps them not be neglected, and it does balance the game...it may not make people happy, or be the best way to go about it, but it works. Furthermore, I am making a concession - I do feel Hasso is very strong, I just don't think Sam main should suffer (buff every other job) because of it,when every other 2h DD has the same ability (- what, 5 str, oh noes).

Buffing 1 handers to be similar damage to 2 handers does help, as then your decision on 2h/1h melees is based on what unique skills those jobs bring, and not just damage output. I dont think every job in the game needs to be the same damage, and quite frankly I think most jobs have pretty good balance in the game (my thf doesnt do the damage of my mnk, but it has different uses, hate management, and TH, as well as nice soloing ability).

I'm ok with buffing 1handers, I'm not okay with buffing every non-Sam 2h out there with this delusion that Sam is somehow leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else. You're not really disagreeing with me though.

go see how you fare tanking any HNMish fight as a DD/NIN, get back to me

DI Fight 1. I was Sam/nin, Nere was Sam/nin, we had no tank.

Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Failure                     109             153               169       71.24 %          64.50 %
Nere                         58              90               109       64.44 %          53.21 %
Slane                         3               0                 0        0.00 %           0.00 %

DI Fight 2. I was Sam/nin, Vorge was Pld/nin.

Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Failure                      88             135               150       65.19 %          58.67 %
Muhnjob                       3               6                 7       50.00 %          42.86 %
Nere                          9              24                26       37.50 %          34.62 %
Shads                         2               0                 0        0.00 %           0.00 %
Vorge                        98             144               173       68.06 %          56.65 %

Enough with the DI fights? It's not hard to survive and cast shadows. Pld gains nothing except the ability to generate enmity from the front. With 2 good DDs, that becomes irrelevant.

SW-Serket 1. I was Sam/nin, Tanthalass was an atonementless pld, Slane was a rdm/nin.

Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Failure                      64             120               137       53.33 %          46.72 %
Slane                        19             102               118       18.63 %          16.10 %
Tanthalass                    8              90               108        8.89 %           7.41 %

SW-Serket 2. I was Sam/nin, Vorge was Pld/nin.

Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Failure                      27              69                78       39.13 %          34.62 %
Vorge                        33              78                90       42.31 %          36.67 %

Odin-1. Avelle+Vorge Plds, Me Sam/nin (with a Hagun).

Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Avelle                       12              33                39       36.36 %          30.77 %
Failure                      28              84                96       33.33 %          29.17 %
Vorge                        50             114               133       43.86 %          37.59 %

Odin-2. Avelle+Magnus Pld/nin, Me Sam/nin (Amano on this one).

Shadow Use
Player             Shadows Used    Shadows Cast  Shadows Cast(Nin)   Efficiency  Efficiency (Nin)
Avelle                       57             129               155       44.19 %          36.77 %
Failure                      21             123               142       17.07 %          14.79 %
Magnus                       14              96               115       14.58 %          12.17 %

Idk what all you want, I can give you full parses, I can give you more parses, I'm not just making up that a DD/nin can tank said HNMs. Shadows are shadows, they do the same thing on Sam as they do on Pld. Your /dnc is going to do shit, on the other hand, and I highly doubt Seigan + 3rd eye will keep you alive reliably (though it's amazing to fall back on if shadow timers get fucked). If you really want, I can go get damage taken on all these also. Generally, its about the same as the other tanks, maybe slightly higher, but not much.

Yeah, you're right and the devs who say that 76-99 will be a game of "catch up to SAM" for the DDs are wrong.

You don't really believe that because a game dev says it, it must be so? That's why they didn't find salvage duping before the players, or the various AV exploits? That's why they didn't decide to nerf PW, or realize the potential in Astral Burns? Sorry, in virtually every MMO out there, the endgame community and it's playerbase know more about the mechanics of the game than the developers. It's inevitable when you have a handful of developers and thousands of endgame players with nothing better to do than talk on some online forums.

The problem can be entirely solved by buffing other jobs so that there is something better than SAM to sub. Talk about the inability to grasp a concept

Buffing 1h jobs is ok. Buffing other 2h jobs in the lvl 50+ department is not ok, as Hasso will remain overpowered, it will tip the scales, but it will not give balance, because again, a Sam/war now is no better off than a War/sam, and barely ahead of a Drg/sam, who has quite a few other things they can do (including nice healing options). If you want to buff other jobs with abilities <50 giving them abilities better than Hasso when subbed, then fine, but you do realize that is actually a larger buff to sam than it will be to other jobs, likely?

Edit:
Tiamat is near impossible for a Sam to tank, though I can cotank it while it's on the ground, I -will- lose hate when it flies, making it a poor choice, but I did /nin to that when I went Sam, and bounced hate with plds on the ground. Khim and Cerb are both tankable by a Sam, though Cerb can be rough to generate hate on if he spams too many Stoneskins, since I do rely solely on damage. Faf/Nid I really hope you don't believe a Sam can't do. We don't really even use tanks on outside Jailers except Prudence and Love. Also, anything a DD can't tank - it's not because of damage taken, it's because of some gimmick that makes it hard to generate/hold hate (Tiamat flying, JoL needing a ranged tank, Prudence spamming PD and being evasive as fuck to begin with).

[Priran]

ok so it's the broad definition of tanking then

all of your examples of devs being wrong were unforseen consequences they later fixed. SAM buffs had the unforseen consequence of making SAM hopelessly OP, and will be fixed.

if SAM gains the ability to level past 151 so they can sub the new 76+ additions they will be OP then as well