lv99 bitch/speculation/etc thread

[Xavier]

Unless you're telling me that the healer the paladin is "replacing" doesn't show up because of this(who needs Haste, anyway?), I don't see your point. Both of them are still going to be there, and one of them is going to be twiddling their thumbs. We've gone from superfluous damage mitigation to superfluous healing.

And I've seen this logical fallacy a handful of times in this thread: why do people keep saying that a DD is being forced to lower their output to tank? Yes, that person is having to lower their damage ouput, but that party slot's damage output just rose significantly.

Beyond that, I don't know what you don't understand. I've been tanking without the nifty abilities of a paladin for a long time on red mage, and as far as staying alive goes, I attribute that, more than anything, to Stoneskin and capped recasts, both of which DRK has(or some variation of it).

Sorry, I didn't realize you only brought a single person capable of casting haste out of the entire alliance. You're right. In that situation, where your entire alliance is dependent on a single player being there to cast haste, you win. It's not even like haste is capable of being cast by someone outside the alliance either for most situations. My bad.

Logical fallacy? Using a tank who deals respectable damage, while holding hate, while allowing a healers spot to be replaced by a pure DD will result in more damage than requiring a healer to support your DD tank. Sorry, just don't see your argument.

I was pretty clear to point out that I only consider PLD superior to a DD tank on genuinely hard things, so for the life of me I can't understand your counterargument. I also said nothing of RDM vs PLD survivability.

Unless you can tell me that a pld deals absolutely no damage, a pld + dd will outdamage a dd + healer in an alliance. Notice I specifically said alliance, and I really have to hope you aren't making an alliance with only one person hasting ~15 people.

[FailureMidgard]

I ride the fuck out of Hasso on almost everything except chariots and a few NMs. See, I don't need to go to a mog house to switch between Seigan and Hasso.

I dont however support 2 Sams full timing Hasso on bosses like Failure suggested.

I think this pretty accurately sums up the big problem I have with my life. Trying to debate with a guy who really doesn't have the ability to read a full post. This is like the 10th time in the past 24 hrs you've gone and pulled this shit.

I am quite happy, actually.

[pchan]

RE: the best DD in Salvage, etc, discussion. We can finish every zone with any three DD, and there is no discernible difference in the outcome.

3 DDs in salvage (assuming you don't count the THF), ouch.

[Byrthnoth]

1288 merits worth of xp to get 8 jobs 75 to 99 assuming they don't increase it over the current +2kxp/level system.
















I don't wannaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~!! ; ;

(For reference, you could get Maat's cap with only 750 merits worth of xp)

[FailureMidgard]

Eh, there is so many unspecified parameters that arguing on either side is stupid at the moment. Which zone, sch or not, perfectly geared melee with relic or not, how many melees...

A good sam will do better dmg than mnk in salvage imo, but killing everything in 100 minutes isn't really an issue in the first place. Mnk on the other hand has a much better survivability, and penance/subtle blows always make thing smoother.

I guess you agree with me entirely, I dunno if what I said came off wrong, but every time anyone has asked for salvage setup, I've always said take your best geared melee, ignore their job. The idea that monk shines in salvage is obsolete though. Monk, as a DD job, is not useless, but the strengths it has come into play everywhere. Salvage is no different than other events. If anything, due to the whole unable to switch subjob thing, monk is arguably worse in salvage because most agree /war isn't worth it for some NMs/chariot, but, without a doubt shadows are useless on the first couple floors. It only becomes a debate on what is better on higher, non-boss floors. Well, Sam/War, War/Sam, Drg/Sam and Drk/Sam can Hasso all they want on early floors, and later on still have a pretty damn nice defensive tool, a defensive tool that is nice enough that a single mage can still solo heal it. Drk bring shit also...stuns, can heal themself, an Apoc Drk adds a whole new level to making it easy on the support - all the while riding Hasso.

You probably belong to the nerds that systematically go /sam or /war in Einherjar, bringing along 6 BLM to stun, thus being clearly less efficient than everyone /nin and trading the 6 BLM by 6 melees. For your information

We /nin t2, /dd t1/t3. I want to say we bring ~3 Blms, but no, not for stuns, and we don't rely on them to stun. I like it when they do, but they are there for Sleeps. I'm confused though, do you not use sleeps? Do you go out of your way to make sure you only pull 2 at a time? We link whatever, then melee rips through it and BLMs sleep it...pretty crazy strategy I know. In any case, changing the subjob would in no way change the number of black mages we bring (and in fact, on t2 when we /nin, we bring the same #).

(1) MNK/WAR works in salvage, boss, or not boss. It requires too much healing power though. Salvage is all about minimizing #people to maximize rewards.

Ok, well, Seigan doesn't require too much healing, and we've run 1-healer in any zone and full cleared with 20-30 min remaining (pre-relic too btw, I actually don't go very often any more). I agree with you that bringing too many is bleh. If you're going to say 6 is too many, then I'll disagree with you there though, I think it's the ideal #, warp entering is just annoying, and 6 makes it smoother/faster/doesn't cause that much issues with gear.

(2) Since salvage is easily low manable, you don't have to bring COR+BRDx2+DNC+SMN buffer to be efficient and you play it safe. MNK/NIN is safer to tank, therefore you go mnk/nin, it is also obviously a better tank than sam/war even if they use seigan. Hell you know very well that I don't use BRDs either. It doesn't change the fact that I clear all zones beside pop NMs with MNKx2 THF RDM WHM with 10 minutes remaining typically.

You get "have to bring" and "beneficial to bring" confused. If you HAVE TO BRING 2 healers to be efficient...I dunno where I'm going with this, but I dunno how you can say mnk is all that, and insult other's setups while bringing 2 healers. And don't get me wrong, we've done 2 healers before also, but it's not necesasry.

DD DD Thf Brd Rdm Whm
DD DD Thf Brd Cor RedorWhiteMage
Those are the 2 setups we've used the most, both can full clear, neither is an excessive # of people, and healing isn't really an issue...Take whatever DD, never really mattered. War/Sam, Sam/War, Drg/Sam, Drk/Sam, Mnk/Nin.

If you need DNC+dble march+haste(spell)+(speed belt dsk+1) to be onpar/beat monk, which has yet to be proven, the very least we can say is that SAM is not broken.

Now, enjoy your brdx2+cor+dnc+smn+diaIII+SAM+SAM+THF runs, 6 man-merits with 3 outside healers or other retarded shit. Put your full usu to good use, level pewp and solo fafnir at 80.

Keep making shit up to attempt to prove your point, why is it everyone on your side of the argument has to put words in my mouth to try to win? Read what I'm saying, not what you want me to be saying so you can try to win.

Also Mdk, I missed it last night - but lol @ Speed Belt + Dusk+1 vs Shenlongs. Not everyone is going to server transfer to buy those to begin with, and 2nd off, a VBelt you can buy for ~10m. Let's go with Hades Sainti +1. Also, you really shouldn't get into gil spent on shit, 'cause that will get messy fast. A Black Belt on my server right now runs about 12-15mil. Speaking of Black Belt, what happens when ya get a little unlucky on belt cells in SSR? Suddenly your monk has shit for haste, sounds great.

[Gergall]

Notice I specifically said alliance, and I really have to hope you aren't making an alliance with only one person hasting ~15 people.

This just caused me to realize that an 80SCH/40WHM will be able to keep an entire alliance hasted nonstop.

[Tagus]

This just caused me to realize that an 80SCH/40WHM will be able to keep an entire alliance hasted nonstop.

Yeah... I hope you guys are enjoying your maximum efficiency arguments, because this might be the last time we have it for a while. I can't wait for this fucking update, personally.

[pchan]

If you HAVE TO BRING 2 healers to be efficient....

In the MNKx2 THF RDM WHM setup there is only one healer, RDM is puller except on boss.

[FailureMidgard]

In the MNKx2 THF RDM WHM setup there is only one healer, RDM is puller except on boss.

Oh right, I forgot, why use a bard to pull, only red mages can use a ranged offensive ability on a mob, then turn and run. I forgot, how do you have any right in trying to say what's better when you think a bard isn't better?

[Rocl]

This just caused me to realize that an 80SCH/40WHM will be able to keep an entire alliance hasted nonstop.

oh ye gods what have you done.

[pchan]

Oh right, I forgot, why use a bard to pull, only red mages can use a ranged offensive ability on a mob, then turn and run. I forgot, how do you have any right in trying to say what's better when you think a bard isn't better?

Clearly RDM is the superior puller.

[FailureMidgard]

Clearly RDM is the superior puller.

Yes, because pulling is a very challenging event. It's what you do between pulls that makes bard far far better. This is going nowhere, everyone on these forums knows you think 20% haste and an extra 50% slow sucks. Don't worry though, you -need- gravity, bind, and a mainjob stoneskin, that way when a monk can't pull it off you fast enough, you won't die.

[Francisco]

If they stay on track with the rate of job trait increases, MNK should be on track to receive Kick Attacks III @ level 91 and Martial Arts VII at either 90 or 91.

If that's the case, a level 91 MNK using Destroyers would be the equivalent of dual wielding DMG: 62 Delay: 140...

That's assuming MNK continues to gain 5 H2H skill each level, and uses Faith Torque with full (8/8) merits.

By level 99, those numbers would be DMG: 67 Delay: 164.

It looks quite tasty - and barring relic buffs, here's the difference between the "big three" monk weapons @ 99

Destroyers:
DMG: 67 Delay: 164
Critical Hit Rate + 6%

Spharai:
DMG: 72 Delay: 183
Attack +20
Enhances Counter / Gives Final Heaven

Shenlong's:
DMG: 70 Delay: 166
STR+3 Accuracy+10
Double Attack +1%

I'm not math head, but the more Martial Arts we get, and the higher our natural damage becomes, the more Spharai suffers because of it's higher delay, and the less it benefits from it's higher damage.

If the cap went much higher than 100, I think Destroyers and Shenlong's would overpower Spharai. And again, I'm no math head, but the numbers above indicate they might even be better at some point during the 90-99.

[Nightmarelord]

If they stay on track with the rate of job trait increases, MNK should be on track to receive Kick Attacks III @ level 91 and Martial Arts VII at either 90 or 91.

If that's the case, a level 91 MNK using Destroyers would be the equivalent of dual wielding DMG: 62 Delay: 140...

That's assuming MNK continues to gain 5 H2H skill each level, and uses Faith Torque with full (8/8) merits.

By level 99, those numbers would be DMG: 67 Delay: 164.

It looks quite tasty - and barring relic buffs, here's the difference between the "big three" monk weapons @ 99

Destroyers:
DMG: 67 Delay: 164
Critical Hit Rate + 6%

Spharai:
DMG: 72 Delay: 183
Attack +20
Enhances Counter / Gives Final Heaven

Shenlong's:
DMG: 70 Delay: 166
STR+3 Accuracy+10
Double Attack +1%

I'm not math head, but the more Martial Arts we get, and the higher our natural damage becomes, the more Spharai suffers because of it's higher delay, and the less it benefits from it's higher damage.

If the cap went much higher than 100, I think Destroyers and Shenlong's would overpower Spharai. And again, I'm no math head, but the numbers above indicate they might even be better at some point during the 90-99.

Inc trial of magians quest to fix spharai.

[Rocl]

For all we know H2H could be calculated differently past 300!

[Taruking]

You clearly said that in a meripo, mobs die so fast that building TP (and therefore dot) is not important and meditate (which you refer as "JA") is more important. Guess what ? It's the other way around. Meditate is less important in a meripo than anywhere else. 60 TP every 3 minutes is riduculous when it takes 15sec for one ws (with high buffs) or 20 sec (with only 2ble march).

I used to think you are just retarded, obviously you are dyslexic too.

In which part of my post have I specifically mentioned building TP is not important?? On the contrary, fast TP gain is how 2H DDs destroy MNK in merit party. Before your MNK get sufficient TP to fire off one Ausuran Fist, the other 3x 2H DD in your party are probably halfway/75% through their 2nd WS. 2H DD are strong because they don't have to hit as many rounds to gain 100TP, and this leaves MNK and dualwield jobs very little time to land enough hits to build significant amount of DOT damage.

Do not underestimate Meditate, 4x melee/SAM contribute 240TP every 3 mins to the total damage (not including SAM main who can drop the recast futher with Meditate merit). Assuming it takes 2-3 secs for your melee to switch from one mob to another, it will take another 20-30 sec off Meditate recast for all your 2H SAM or /SAM every 10 mobs killed by your party.

[Francisco]

Inc trial of magians quest to fix spharai.

Could be - but they might give similar boosts to Destroyers and Shenlong's? As is, MNK could become pretty broken (in comparison to other jobs) by the time the early 90s come around. It might even start to pull ahead in the early to mid 80s. I won't complain though.

Even with the damage increase from more H2H skill, the probability of getting another Martial Arts trait, the possibility of more kick attacks - MNKs are going to be screaming for something that is useful, new, and exclusive. Top it off with whatever the Trial of Magians does to gear like Usukane, Black Belt - and whatever happens with AF3, and things could get a bit crazy.

For 76 to 99, I'd be happy with steady DPS increase, a boost to Chakra (maybe make it cure Slow), and maybe a small boost to Guard and Counter. Like maybe I can get a point of Guard Skill here and there for a change?

For all we know H2H could be calculated differently past 300!

Possibly - but even if there is a change - I doubt it'd be drastic.

[Konda]

guard mastery plz!

[Gergall]

If the cap went much higher than 100, I think Destroyers and Shenlong's would overpower Spharai. And again, I'm no math head, but the numbers above indicate they might even be better at some point during the 90-99.

8 years from now when they raise the level cap to 150 everyone is gonna be rocking Vishnu's.

[Francisco]

Another thought - assuming it's not toned down (which it will be).

Beyond 80, how will MNK/NIN stand up to MNK/WAR in the damage department?

At MNK80/NIN40, we gain Innin - which is a huge critical hit rate bonus when behind the enemy. Attacks will also generate less enmity.