FFXIV Closed Alpha/Beta Discussion (Cancelled for this week)

[Tsutsumiko]

By these standards, there are a lot of poorly designed games out there

static design != bad design.

As a note, I'm not defending FFXI's interface. It was overstreamlined to the point that a fair amount of basic information was not readily accessible. On the flip side, I loved playing a game where I could actually see the game being played.

This. I've programmed some UI's for major projects and stuff in college and usually static interfaces are chosen simply because if they weren't, you'd give the people using the program far too much freedom. Which can lead to lots of tedious and unnecessary code...which leads to more bugs potentially...which means more error testing...which leads to back tracking and fixing things... etc. etc.

Most companies plan things out from the start with a limited scope for a reason. It's much easier in programming to start with something small and expand it rather than build something incredibly complex and try to break it down (at least in my opinion). They just have to not lose touch with the player base/customers (which they seem to do all to often) and keep them satisfied.

[Xavier]

Rather thin argument. I'd wager somewhere between 5 to at most 10% of the FFXI population is hardcore, the rest casual. And that far more than 5-10% of the population uses at least one add-on of some kind.

Add-ons are rampant in WoW in particular. The aren't the exception, they're the norm. They aren't hard to find, they're everywhere. And most importantly, as long as you aren't trying to profit off them, they're encouraged by the developers. They make the game easier, which makes it more accessible to casual players. FFXI is incredibly inaccessible to new players, whereas WoW let's you streamline everything you want. There is a reason why WoW dominates the casual market.

[Arelian]

Yeah but how many casuals played XI for more than six months? It's not really designed for casuals so most of them stop playing and go to WoW or whatever.

Maybe you're right casuals are just as likely to use addons too, I wouldn't know since I don't play WoW. I just get the impression of a casual being someone who plays a couple of hours per day and doesn't care much about the game community outside of the game (such as these forums).

But there's still different types of addons as Cairthenn mentioned. A casual is more likely to use one that does something simple like sort their inventory rather than the one to add 20 things to their screen about the mob they're fighting and their party.

I'd rather the developers listen to the community more and implement the good ideas. That way there won't be a need for addons.

CAAAAASUAAAAALS

is pretty much all I'm reading from a guy named Sephiroth, lol.

[naninani]

I'd rather the developers listen to the community more and implement the good ideas. That way there won't be a need for addons.

This is where the community needs to be unified and vocal during these tests.

FFXI's initial development process had little to no outside input, so we can really have an impact on what goes into FFXIV.

[Azurewrath]

You know, I've played other MMOs with mounts you can use whenever, thousands of addons, and I'd rather keep XIV basic.

It was annoying knowing other people had an edge over you because they might have found the latest cheap addon which would get patched a week later, but still, for that week, that player could know things nobody else did.

I don't want a game where I know the exact second an enemy is going to use an ability, exactly when my abilities wear off, exactly where NMs are, etc, I want to play the game myself, not have a program do it for me, sorry, but these things all made other games easymode, but they're somewhat competitive games, so everyone pretty much has to do it.

I hate addons, TP and recast timer plugins on FFXI made the game play for you, and so do addons on other games. I want my game tough, and I want it so I'm different from everyone else. If I can count and estimate TP, I'll be better than other people, but if everyone has everything written out there for them to see it, that's the game playing itself. Boring.

As for Mounts anywhere, same deal kind of, in FFXI that'd be lame. If you ever had to get anywhere, all the adventure would be gone, just chocobo through every zone and zone to where you're headed, no need for sneak or invisible, just plow through, making the game once again, easier.


I don't know about you guys, but I don't really like things that are handed out to you, kind of makes the game boring really fast.

With all that said, I don't really care what they do, addons or not, mounts, giving you timers, just my opinion

[Shaskoru]

I'd rather the developers listen to the community more and implement the good ideas. That way there won't be a need for addons.

Scripting support is a good idea. Even the availability of it attracts users and developers. There is an entire community (Which is probably as large, or larger, than the entire ffxi player base) in wow where players build/tweak interfaces and developers create addons. Some of these people do not even play wow - they simply love its customization.

This. I've programmed some UI's for major projects and stuff in college and usually static interfaces are chosen simply because if they weren't, you'd give the people using the program far too much freedom. Which can lead to lots of tedious and unnecessary code...which leads to more bugs potentially...which means more error testing...which leads to back tracking and fixing things... etc. etc.

Most companies plan things out from the start with a limited scope for a reason. It's much easier in programming to start with something small and expand it rather than build something incredibly complex and try to break it down (at least in my opinion). They just have to not lose touch with the player base/customers (which they seem to do all to often) and keep them satisfied.

Perhaps I was vague with my thoughts. I am not advocating for the developers to add massive customization into the default UI, but I am stating that is is ignorant of them to believe that the default UI can be equally useful to all players or cover all of the necessary tools to play the game to its maximum efficiency. Of course, this is not true for all games; but, it is especially true for large games with many areas of focus. AKA: Most mmorpgs

EDIT:

You know, I've played other MMOs with mounts you can use whenever, thousands of addons, and I'd rather keep XIV basic.

It was annoying knowing other people had an edge over you because they might have found the latest cheap addon which would get patched a week later, but still, for that week, that player could know things nobody else did.

I don't want a game where I know the exact second an enemy is going to use an ability, exactly when my abilities wear off, exactly where NMs are, etc, I want to play the game myself, not have a program do it for me, sorry, but these things all made other games easymode, but they're somewhat competitive games, so everyone pretty much has to do it.

I hate addons, TP and recast timer plugins on FFXI made the game play for you, and so do addons on other games. I want my game tough, and I want it so I'm different from everyone else. If I can count and estimate TP, I'll be better than other people, but if everyone has everything written out there for them to see it, that's the game playing itself. Boring.

As for Mounts anywhere, same deal kind of, in FFXI that'd be lame. If you ever had to get anywhere, all the adventure would be gone, just chocobo through every zone and zone to where you're headed, no need for sneak or invisible, just plow through, making the game once again, easier.


I don't know about you guys, but I don't really like things that are handed out to you, kind of makes the game boring really fast.

With all that said, I don't really care what they do, addons or not, mounts, giving you timers, just my opinion

You're outlining your experience with game modifications in ffxi and comparing it to properly restricted addons in other games. I'm sorry, but that is just biased and uninformed. Also, I don't see how simple UI enhancements like knowing your other party members' tp or recast timers "plays the game for you".

[domitian]

Can someone PM me the info for the music, I always seem to miss out, and arrive after the mods start doing their job.

[Ezek]

Can someone PM me the info for the music, I always seem to miss out, and arrive after the mods start doing their job.

Seconded :<

[Azurewrath]

Scripting support is a good idea. Even the availability of it attracts users and developers. There is an entire community (Which is probably as large, or larger, than the entire ffxi player base) in wow where players build/tweak interfaces and developers create addons. Some of these people do not even play wow - they simply love its customization.



Perhaps I was vague with my thoughts. I am not advocating for the developers to add massive customization into the default UI, but I am stating that is is ignorant of them to believe that the default UI can be equally useful to all players or cover all of the necessary tools to play the game to its maximum efficiency. Of course, this is not true for all games; but, it is especially true for large games with many areas of focus. AKA: Most mmorpgs

EDIT:



You're outlining your experience with game modifications in ffxi and comparing it to properly restricted addons in other games. I'm sorry, but that is just biased. Also, I don't see how simple UI enhancements like knowing your other party members' tp or recast timers "plays the game for you".

Simply because it gives you information the game doesn't want you to be given. To a very small extent, it's taking away from the game.

I do think small things like teammates TP should be given to you in the first place, but it wasn't, so it's technically kind of unfair to PS2 users that PC users can see it.

I still used it later on, but that's all I'm saying.

[Pearlsea]

Reread the thread and look for a certain live journal if you want music.

[Katlan]

When developers start taking addons into account when designing new content you're encouraging a situation where the hardcore players have an advantage. It's fine letting addons set the game to easy mode if people want it that way, but developers shouldn't try to take this easy mode back to hard mode where it becomes extreme mode for those without the addon.

I don't mean to derail the thread into an addon debate, but

This is what happened w/ WoW and it kind of sucks.. I dont think a lot of these fights would be possible w/o DBM, ect... and the dev's design encounters around ppl using them. Nice thing about XI was that u didnt need these addons to function (Windower was and will always be awesome), but u didnt need crazy stuff like wow has

[Shaskoru]

Simply because it gives you information the game doesn't want you to be given. To a very small extent, it's taking away from the game.

I do think small things like teammates TP should be given to you in the first place, but it wasn't, so it's technically kind of unfair to PS2 users that PC users can see it.

I still used it later on, but that's all I'm saying.

I like to think of that as shortcomings of development on SE's part. Simple UI based information such as that should be available in the default UI. Also, it's hard to argue fairness in a multi-platform game. There are features available to certain platforms that cannot be granted to players using a different platform, and the opposite is true as well. I'm sure 95% of the posters here remember ps2 limitations, and that is just one example of many.

[Cairthenn]

http://(my ingame name)xiv.net/music

That way there is no breaking the NDA to be had.

Spoiler: show

For in-game name see FFXIAH Link in signature

[Ezek]

I don't mean to derail the thread into an addon debate, but

This is what happened w/ WoW and it kind of sucks.. I dont think a lot of these fights would be possible w/o DBM, ect... and the dev's design encounters around ppl using them. Nice thing about XI was that u didnt need these addons to function (Windower was and will always be awesome), but u didnt need crazy stuff like wow has

I wouldn't say they are needed really, especially since Blizzard has begun to add important raid notices/warnings into their own default UI, which is seen throughout ICC.

As I said before, I would love FFXIV to adapt a similar open-ended approach to UI/addon development like WoW but I don't see it happening due to the shitstorm that would probably occur from the console players. They complain enough as it is about their macro slots limitations in FFXI amongst other things which Windower completely bypasses for PC players.

[Azurewrath]

I like to think of that as shortcomings of development on SE's part. Simple UI based information such as that should be available in the default UI. Also, it's hard to argue fairness in a multi-platform game. There are features available to certain platforms that cannot be granted to players using a different platform, and the opposite is true as well. I'm sure 95% of the posters here remember ps2 limitations, and that is just one example of many.

Yeah, but PS2 limitations vs PC version with no plugins wasn't that big of a difference, cause PC was limited by PS2 in a lot of ways.

I do think minor addons are great, but just like you said, to give small info ike that, shortcomings, filling them in and whatnot, but now the thing is, why would people stop? people would keep making addons until there's one that can fight enemies for you. ;p

If SE was really smart, they'd make addons for the game themselves you could activate if you wanted. Only problem is the quality of these. If they have enough features you can turn on or off, you could have a bunch of info if you wanted on screen, or you could have it very clean and basic, i'd like that.


I just reread my post and it looks like it was written by a baby with a fork in it's ass. Just ignore it, lol

[Pearlsea]

From sunwell experiance I'm sure you could do a lot of the fights without addons, it would just take an extra level of coordination. Especially things like timers which you need to react to in a bunch of different WoW encounters, things that would be possible but a huge pain to do manually.

Threat calculators are somewhat of an exception but they were added into the game in some form during wotlk so its now a non issue for wow. During burning crusade if you did not have a threat calculator you were simply gimp.

[Shaskoru]

I do think minor addons are great, but just like you said, to give small info ike that, shortcomings, filling them in and whatnot, but now the thing is, why would people stop? people would keep making addons until there's one that can fight enemies for you. ;p

This is what I'm referring to when I say properly restricted addons. Blizzard provides its own API for manipulation through addons, and most of the automation cannot be performed on "secure" widgets or in combat. This prevents 99% of the issues with "playing the game for you". Secure widgets refer to anything that can cause an in-game physical action to occur, such as moving or casting a spell. These widgets require hardware events to process, or the action is blocked. You cannot bypass it by calling the API directly, either. Any API which initiates said actions is also protected, meaning it cannot be called in combat or without a hardware event. Of course, this is only a generalization of the actual system in place, but I hope it was informative enough to answer your question.

P.S.: Sorry about the addon derailment

[Cairthenn]

Found mob TP moves if anyone is interested after...

Edit: There is Level 5 Petrify.

[Lazytowner]

Lol, if I don't need Deadly Boss Mod in Demon's Souls, I don't need it in my mmo's.

Instead of taking a look at tell-tale signs of an incoming attack (which could be much easier to do with these graphics), I'll be staring at a wall of text telling me when to set off ability A at target B.

Instead of fighting a giant dragon boss that starts coughing and wheezing before it breathes giant flaming rubber dicks at me, I'm just keeping an eye on my 1 of 50 addons that, when put together, only remind me of this:


http://jenwhiz.files.wordpress.com/2...bro_bop_it.jpg

[sruon]

Found mob TP moves if anyone is interested after...

Edit: There is Level 5 Petrify.

SPIKU FRAIL?!!