alexander/odin speculation

[Draylo]

I really think they were being lazy when they introduced these avatars. Last time they stated you would be asking us how it works not when they will be coming. Why would we ask how these two avatars work if they are just tied to astral flow... This is what they meant by not having a lot of blood pacts and operating differently than other avatars? What makes Odin and Alexander so special anyway, they are celestial avatars just like the others if im not mistaken. Why they need to be invoked only with 2hr is beyond me. Should have just given them a lot of bloodpacts throughout the levels just like the rest.

[Tsuko_Asura]

It is a bit of a plot hole for them to require AF. It actually could have made sense if Alexander wasn't summoned in machine form, because both of the actual avatars generally require an.. Avatar. Odin possessed Luzaf, and Alexander possessed the machine- to summon them without these tools could require a summoner's full strength(Astral Flow). But like I said, you summon Alexander in his ToAU form.. So that doesn't really apply.

[Hanyoko]

I seem to recall that what delayed the smn updates would be that the avatar "functioned differently" but I fail to see how that is the case with alex/odin
Odin - summon - does aoe effect
Alex - summon - does aoe party buff
Sure there is whole 'requires astral flow' but I doubt that is the reason for such a delay.

Then of course there is Atomos (sorry the fight in Distorter of Time just feels very CoP diabolos) whom could be the update surprise. After all the two observed moves (Soul Vacuum and Soul Infusion) are conjoined in a way.

[blue]

Personally I think SE will gimp Smn's Astral flow in the coming update making its accuracy generally suck more on more targets like Zante.

[Gwynplaine]

I don't understand why Summoners are happy about this since Alex / Odin are only usable once every 2 hours. Sure, it's a nice new toy for Summoner, but how is it going to help them find parties or stop the "Sub WHM/SCH and Heal" mentality that exists on the road to 75? (with the exception of SMN Burns) It's a one trick pony that changes the way SMN is played for 3 minutes then it's back to your old style for the next hour and 55 minutes.

That's true enough, but for this period I'd say it's silly to criticize any job imbalances knowing that such radical changes are on their way shortly.

[Pendas]

I really think they were being lazy when they introduced these avatars. Last time they stated you would be asking us how it works not when they will be coming. Why would we ask how these two avatars work if they are just tied to astral flow... This is what they meant by not having a lot of blood pacts and operating differently than other avatars? What makes Odin and Alexander so special anyway, they are celestial avatars just like the others if im not mistaken. Why they need to be invoked only with 2hr is beyond me. Should have just given them a lot of bloodpacts throughout the levels just like the rest.

Exactly, I mean how long has it been since they promised new Avatars and when they were released... TWO years? It took them two years to Beta test 2 new blood pacts and make the Odin and Alexander Models summonable. Compare that to the time frame between Diablos' mission debut and his Summon Quest; and he had a complete move set. I'd be pissed if I played SMN.

[Araelus]

I think Odin and Alexander seem fine for just the added 2hr special - if Odin will 100% kill a single normal mob then it's a one-button-press SHTF ability much like other 2hrs can be used. Whereas Alexander seems like a good "third astral flow", although you need to get back as much MP as possible before using it based on the description.

Much more interesting to me than those two is what Blood Pacts will be added 76-99, and/or at the new 99 merits, or did we forget about that?

Am I the only one more excited about what gear possibilities we might be able to get as rewards for the supposed Alex/Odin BC's other than avatar use?

Also this.

[Draylo]

I bet it will have like 20% acc knowing SE... how many people were like WOAH diabolos 2hr seems awesome! When he was first announced, then we try it out on mobs with a lot of HP and it sucks ass lol.

[Nevex]

I bet it will have like 20% acc knowing SE... how many people were like WOAH diabolos 2hr seems awesome! When he was first announced, then we try it out on mobs with a lot of HP and it sucks ass lol.

Or have 100% accuracy or any single non-NM mob but you don't get exp/drops.

[Pendas]

Much more interesting to me than those two is what Blood Pacts will be added 76-99, and/or at the new 99 merits, or did we forget about that?

I'm sure this was the exact same mentality people had 1 month ago except they spoke about the new avatars. Don't get me wrong, I hope SE does this right and overhauls the jobs well enough to add new and exciting content, abilities, and roles for all the jobs. (Maybe it explains why WoTG has been so poorly revealed and handled, they were working on job re-balancing and the new level cap, idk.) But this is a discussion about Alex and Odin, and right now, they don't live up to the hype SE has created around them.

[Draylo]

I also don't see much use for the 2hr outside of getting a link... I guess it could be useful depending on ACC but then you are blowing all MP.

[Araelus]

I bet it will have like 20% acc knowing SE... how many people were like WOAH diabolos 2hr seems awesome! When he was first announced, then we try it out on mobs with a lot of HP and it sucks ass lol.

Fair enough. In the promo clip it only targets three mobs and it misses one of them ...

[Omnipotent]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Tsuko_Asura]

The dark-based imp? That's to be expected.

Edit: Is Wiki correct about Jnun also being dark-based? I don't remember them being very resistant to Sleep.

[Draylo]

Hm they seemed to get exp ? Don't see any items, although they could have nothing due to test mobs.

[ronin sparthos]

So SE shows off a new Astral Flow ability and it doesn't even kill the lab rat mobs? Rut Oh.

The video should have continued a couple seconds more so everyone could see the SMN get pummeled by the Heraldic Imp.

Seems like they didn't make Alexander a normal avatar because that model is incapable of walking but still.... horrible idea is horrible. :3

[Cairthenn]

The dark-based imp? That's to be expected.

Edit: Is Wiki correct about Jnun also being dark-based? I don't remember them being very resistant to Sleep.

I thought they were unsleepable? If they aren't then I honestly assumed they were and never tried.

[Kenji]

So, I have to give everyone an apology. For a long time, when people dismissed new avatars, I said things like, "True, SMN's could use issues fixed, but new Avatars wouldn't be all bad. Based on Fenrir and Diabolos, new avatars can give new options and make us more useful."

I'm so very sorry. I had no idea of the extreme depths of SE's stupidity. Two new avatars which can only be used 2.5% of the time at best? I'd rather have Cait Sith with a full BP list that could be used normally, then this BS. I'm now firmly in the "stupid shineys, fix the damn things we already have!" camp.

There are still quite a few unanswered questions here, but some preliminary analysis with facts and figures, still makes it mostly bullshit even assuming maximum optimism.

Odin's Zanky - So your group gets three or four IT mobs on you, that you can't sleep. SMN brings out Odin... which proceeds to miss all 4, or only kill 1, and uses up all your mp. What does a SMN do now? In short, not reliable, except to maybe kill one or two IT's. This is Ruinous Omen part II.

For tough NMs and HNMs, Zanky better do at least 4k damage. Why? Because it uses all your mp, meaning your next Zanky (if you can use it multiple times) is gonna suck due to low mp, unless you pop tons of consumables to get your mp up. A normal Astral Flow can easily do 1k, more depending on pet MAB gear, and you can get out 4 of them with some -BP gear. AND they aren't reduced based on number of mobs. So why use Zanky?

Alex's Perfect Defense - damage reduction, raises your magic evasion, and protection against status ailments. Still a lot of unknowns about this, like how long it lasts, and what percentage of MP correlates to what kind of protection. It won't be 100% protection, so I assume 75-90% protection with full MP. And let's be generous and say that it can last for 3 minutes.

Where is this useful? A very small handful of fights which can make for easier zergs, AV perhaps. Maybe some BCNMs. The best I can see is the status protection for mobs that have a lot of nasty aoe status, but there are very few of those, too. Funny thing is, Alex could have a nice BP list, if they used his attacks that are listed in the final ToAU BC.

Lastly, if you desummon these, then your astral flow ends, meaning you can't switch to another avatar. Once you summon and do the BP, you're stuck with an empty MP pool, and an avatar that can just sit there and plink away. I don't even think Alex can move. They'd have to do some nice melee damage against tough targets to be remotely worth it. And forget about trying to summon them with less than half an MP pool, so it's not really an OSHIT button; Odin will have piss poor accuracy, and Alex might only give 30% damage reduction.

Edit to add: You desummon and you're left with no MP, meaning you are now useless. SMN's nowadays don't even use the Astral Flows we have because of this. We only use it to get free perp for 3 minutes, or astral burn (which is probably going bai bai before the next level cap raise).

[Spira]

keep assuming the exact effects of Zantetsuken and Perfect Defense.
you still sound like an ass.

[Spira]

The video should have continued a couple seconds more so everyone could see the SMN get pummeled by the Heraldic Imp.

Not necessarily so. If you watch closely (and understood what the Japanese guy was saying), both Zantetsuken and Perfect Defense fire off automatically without the need for a target, or being commanded to do so.
No targeted mob would essentially mean no direct action to put you on the hate list, and the Imp didn't aggro by magic either.

In other words, dismissing the avatar should remove all potential hate incurred by the avatar itself, or from commanding an avatar to attack a mob (since it doesnt happen).
edit: and in the video too, the imp loses hate the moment Odin is released.