alexander/odin speculation

**Meian** · 2010-03-01 18:31

Did Odin get one shotted by that Imp? lol

**Spira** · 2010-03-01 18:37

Release.

**Kenji** · 2010-03-01 19:04

Originally Posted by Spira

keep assuming the exact effects of Zantetsuken and Perfect Defense.
you still sound like an ass.

Keep spouting off things without offering any hint of numbers or calculations to show you even thought about this just a little.

You sound like an idiot.

Hey, I at least tried keep some reasonable estimates and likely scenarios. If you really believe this is going to be SUPER AWESOME in a way that SE couldn't possibly make bad, then you must have just started playing Summoner. Or the game for that matter. Welcome!

**Spira** · 2010-03-02 02:01

There's a difference between saying 'i think this ability will work this way' and 'oh, you know Perfect Defense is not ever going to be 100%, not gonna happen bitches'.

nowhere am i saying its going to be a good ability. Lets be practical here, it requires astral flow.. but ruling it out on the premise of what you think it can or cannot do is pretty silly before trying it.

saying its Ruinous Omen II may not be too far from reality but its not like Ruinous Omen sux either. It's pretty hax in the right situation (eg Einherjar).

PS. If you're using Astral Flow BPs, which people DO actually use on SMN when the situation arises, you'll still be left with no MP anyway. At least this time all that extra MP you blow matters.

And from the looks of it, neither Odin nor Alexander are commanded by a BP to execute their moves. It's just the spell summoning, so you could easily possibly throw up another avatar for the first 2m30s of Astral Flow, use your BP Rage and Ward without restraint. Do a Siphon or w/e to get MP back to near full, then summon them and blow all your MP.

This is given that they've said that Astral Flow is limited after the use of Odin/Alex, but not before...

now that is a reasonable estimate and likely scenario. not a QQfest.

**Siatdiat** · 2010-03-02 02:22

To be fair, the ability is called perfect defense, and requires a 2 hour to use. On the other hand, allowing summoner to suddenly give everyone in the party invincible? Kind of doubt that.

**Battlecat** · 2010-03-02 02:23

Can we just erase all these posts and just replace w/ one that says "QQ" in great big giant letters? Would really save people the time of having to actually read this BS

**seiji** · 2010-03-02 06:46

Originally Posted by Spira

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

The video should have continued a couple seconds more so everyone could see the SMN get pummeled by the Heraldic Imp.

Not necessarily so. If you watch closely (and understood what the Japanese guy was saying), both Zantetsuken and Perfect Defense fire off automatically without the need for a target, or being commanded to do so.
No targeted mob would essentially mean no direct action to put you on the hate list, and the Imp didn't aggro by magic either.

In other words, dismissing the avatar should remove all potential hate incurred by the avatar itself, or from commanding an avatar to attack a mob (since it doesnt happen).
edit: and in the video too, the imp loses hate the moment Odin is released.

after any AF every aoed monster loose hate when avatar die/depop, only initial target stay on smn (nad monster who already had some hate)

**Tomino** · 2010-03-02 09:29

One positive thing I can say about these new avatars is that they somehow help fixing summoner, even to a very short extent.
Astral Flow has always been under performing in most endgame events, never worth all the mp the SMN would send to waste. That's why I expect the new BPs to dramatically increase the role of AF.
Might be daydreaming here but a full power Zantetsuken on a standard HNM should net about 2k+ damages to even be considered. This, plus the chance to do it at least 3 times with the proper mp regen.
Perfect Defense, on the other hand, I expect it to be some sort of 3min buff which would ease a lot of BNCMs where a standard damaging AF wouldnt be of any relevance.

**Shalafi** · 2010-03-02 10:19

I don't know about you guys, but the fact that I will be able to /rdm and use refresh to have no mp cost on any avatar could out weigh anything these avatars bring to the table; add convert and as a smn you're laughing (as long as you don't pull hate curing yourself).

I would remind you all to read the update again as it states.

...invoking one or the other will automatically initiate Astral Flow, the effect of which will end upon the avatar’s release.

In other words you can't release, rest and recast as your 2hr will be used. The question is whether your AF will last only 3 mins or until you release; I'm betting these are 1 shot bloodpacts.

**ronin sparthos** · 2010-03-02 10:43

Originally Posted by Spira

Not necessarily so. If you watch closely (and understood what the Japanese guy was saying), both Zantetsuken and Perfect Defense fire off automatically without the need for a target, or being commanded to do so.
No targeted mob would essentially mean no direct action to put you on the hate list, and the Imp didn't aggro by magic either.

In other words, dismissing the avatar should remove all potential hate incurred by the avatar itself, or from commanding an avatar to attack a mob (since it doesnt happen).
edit: and in the video too, the imp loses hate the moment Odin is released.

It was more a snarky remark that SE couldn't even display the OMG NEW SUMMONS ability you know.... kill all the mobs on the screen? The video shows you how useful the technique is going to be when put into practical use.

Say you have that same 3/4 mob hypothetical situation where your party is going to wipe unless you do something. You summon Odin, trigger Zantetsuken and then hope you killed at least 2 mobs because you're now out of MP and are a sitting duck.

Alexander is more promising but all that waiting for a Sentinel-ga 2hr ability?

I understand from a storyline aspect that SE tried to make Odin and Alexander special because well... they are two avatars that don't take well to being ordered around but cmon, this is the worst execution of that storyline bit possible.

Alex/Odin could have been Summoner's version of Hasso/Seigan or Innin/Yonin with the exact same moves they have in their BCNMs toned down a bit and this would have been the most exciting news Summoner got since Diabolos but instead you get two JAs that cost you an entire MP bar to execute.

Bad idea is bad.

**Shin Volcano** · 2010-03-02 11:45

Say you have that same 3/4 mob hypothetical situation where your party is going to wipe unless you do something. You summon Odin, trigger Zantetsuken and then hope you killed at least 2 mobs because you're now out of MP and are a sitting duck.

Shiva says hi.

Alexander is more promising but all that waiting for a Sentinel-ga 2hr ability?

I can already think of a few situations where taking less damage and partial/full immunity to status ailements would be very usefull, one example would be einherjar, imo nothing wrong with it, i'm just waiting to see just how potent it is. Summoner does require some type of thinking you know.

I understand from a storyline aspect that SE tried to make Odin and Alexander special because well... they are two avatars that don't take well to being ordered around but cmon, this is the worst execution of that storyline bit possible.

I await your perfected storyline that you think is better, do tell.

Alex/Odin could have been Summoner's version of Hasso/Seigan or Innin/Yonin with the exact same moves they have in their BCNMs toned down a bit and this would have been the most exciting news Summoner got since Diabolos but instead you get two JAs that cost you an entire MP bar to execute.

Obviously you've never played ff8 odin was a random summon that showed up whenever he felt like it. i'm sorry it's not to your liking, be lucky you're even getting him in the 1st place. it will now be the ONLY job in this game with the ability to inflict "death" on a mob and you're complaning? wtf where you expecting them to be?

Bad idea is bad.

Old complaints are old.

**Draylo** · 2010-03-02 12:11

Originally Posted by Shin Volcano

Shiva says hi.

I can already think of a few situations where taking less damage and partial/full immunity to status ailements would be very usefull, one example would be einherjar, imo nothing wrong with it, i'm just waiting to see just how potent it is. Summoner does require some type of thinking you know.

I await your perfected storyline that you think is better, do tell.

Obviously you've never played ff8 odin was a random summon that showed up whenever he felt like it. i'm sorry it's not to your liking, be lucky you're even getting him in the 1st place. it will now be the ONLY job in this game with the ability to inflict "death" on a mob and you're complaning? wtf where you expecting them to be?

Old complaints are old.

You seem to place a lot of faith in the death 2hr... You really think SE is gonna let SMN just one shit things with 100% acc? I bet it will have like 20% knowing thier track record. It is fact that this was poorly executed. They could have done a million other things to add these new avatars into the game. Alexander and Odin aren't even special... like I said before they should be on par with the other celestial avatars. Hell even the other avatars in their waking the beast form are stronger than Alexander, why he is placed under 2hr?

**Spira** · 2010-03-02 12:30

Originally Posted by seiji

after any AF every aoed monster loose hate when avatar die/depop, only initial target stay on smn (nad monster who already had some hate)

I'm obviously already aware of this, but read what I say and actually watch the video. There is no initial target and no issuing of attack commands. Zantetsuken is automatic. It's an AoE around the Summon (possibily frontal cone) that will just indiscriminately attempt to slay everything within it's range that isnt purple.
Zantetsuken actually one-ups AFBPs on the hateless game, in such a way that even if your original intended target doesnt die, if it didn't have hate on the SMN to begin with, it likely still wouldn't.

Originally Posted by Tomino

Might be daydreaming here but a full power Zantetsuken on a standard HNM should net about 2k+ damages to even be considered. This, plus the chance to do it at least 3 times with the proper mp regen.

not to bust your bubble but from the way i understand after listening to the devs and reading the info released, you can only put out either 1 Zantetsuken or 1 Perfect Defense per Astral Flow.

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

It was more a snarky remark that SE couldn't even display the OMG NEW SUMMONS ability you know.... kill all the mobs on the screen? The video shows you how useful the technique is going to be when put into practical use.

Let's put it another way right now. Can any other job (2hr or otherwise) even come close to bringing an unaggroed mob from 100% to 0 instantly, WITHOUT incurring hate on the player's character at all?

It isn't possible to determine the effective accuracy of the attack simply from 1 single video clip, and it still does bring something new to the table that can have its use.

And you were still wrong about the gameplay mechanic either way.

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

Say you have that same 3/4 mob hypothetical situation where your party is going to wipe unless you do something. You summon Odin, trigger Zantetsuken and then hope you killed at least 2 mobs because you're now out of MP and are a sitting duck.

Are you saying that in that same situation without Odin, a SMN could actually be effective enough to remove maybe 2 of those mobs in a very short amount of time? Don't kid yourself. The most a SMN could do would probably be to stall or kite them, or remove a single threat, but it will take a considerable time to do so.
In other words, when push comes to shove, you'd still be a sitting duck, but with MP.

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

I understand from a storyline aspect that SE tried to make Odin and Alexander special because well... they are two avatars that don't take well to being ordered around but cmon, this is the worst execution of that storyline bit possible.

I actually agree with you for once here.

**Rocl** · 2010-03-02 12:30

Originally Posted by Draylo

What makes Odin and Alexander so special anyway, they are celestial avatars just like the others if im not mistaken.

Odin and Alexander are the only waking Celestial avatars. The other 6 are still sleeping, so it could be that to summon a fully cognizant, all-powerful being to your side for a brief time takes a little more effort than pushing around the sort of power you wield from the Slumbering Gods, no? I don't know, that's what I thought.

As for Alexander not being able to move; I'm wondering if it not's an actual buff, but a Mantelet type effect? That is the first thing I thought, I didn't see any of the videos however, including the one on this page (its blocked here) so I could be wrong.

(OH, we are on a whole different page now whewps)

**EternalSnow** · 2010-03-02 13:45

I want to run around with Odin : (

**Lucavi** · 2010-03-02 13:47

Originally Posted by Plow

odin's should be changed to seppuku tbqh

Nah, Odin should just have like a 10% chance of failing and Seifer comes in out of nowhere and bum rushes him.

You'd be too busy laughing to notice your toon getting raped by the mobs.

**ronin sparthos** · 2010-03-02 13:56

Originally Posted by Shin Volcano

Shiva says hi.

I can already think of a few situations where taking less damage and partial/full immunity to status ailements would be very usefull, one example would be einherjar, imo nothing wrong with it, i'm just waiting to see just how potent it is. Summoner does require some type of thinking you know.

I await your perfected storyline that you think is better, do tell.

Obviously you've never played ff8 odin was a random summon that showed up whenever he felt like it. i'm sorry it's not to your liking, be lucky you're even getting him in the 1st place. it will now be the ONLY job in this game with the ability to inflict "death" on a mob and you're complaning? wtf where you expecting them to be?

Old complaints are old.

Again, Alexanders Perfect Defense has potential however this was toted as the "we've been working on this for a long time guys, you're gonna be thrilled!" epic moment for SMN and it turned out to be something you can only use during Astral Flow. So for 95% of SMN it'll be business as usual with a new 2hr zerg ability - this took years to concieve? Ok.

Even if you give SE the benefit of the doubt and say that "well, the storyline makes it hard to fully control awake celestial avatars" you could still have hashed out a storyline where you and said celestials come to an agreement where you get the avatar but something new is thrown in for storyline purposes like:

- Use of an item (offering) in addition to MP cost to call Alex/Odin to you. These are two ego-driven avatars so the Yojimbo approach could have worked here.

- Higher perpetuation costs (more strain on the summoner etc).

- Lockout on one avatar if you call the other. (3mins, 5mins etc)

- Random increases or decreases in BP costs.

Anywho, that is just 4 ideas I just yoinked out of thin air that sound better than using 2 whole summons as a JA only. It is like those Beastmen hats SE made people quest for years ago where a beastman comes out to help you, uses a standard TP move for shit damage then refuses to be called again for 24hours. Confusing, to say the least.

In FF8, when Odin appeared you knew the battle was over because it was an OFFLINE game and one-hit KOs wont do much to break the overall balance of the game. Diabolos also came from FF8 with Demi-style attacks and look how nerfed he ended up in XI through Ruinous Omen. Zantetsuken is a one-hit KO attack in an online game..... it's going to be nerfed to all hell.

Most of Alexander's pacts in his BCNM could have added an element to Summoner far greater than 'zerg JA' in:

-Divine Spear (Attack Down)
-Radiant Sacrament (MDEF Down)
-Mega Holy (Light damage)
-Gospel of the Lost (Spring Water II)
-Void of Repetance (Terrorize/Stun)

Odin? Hes got a variety of pacts as well and could have filled in a gap as a more DPS-oriented summon.

tl;dr: Let's hope Atomos is around the corner in the next decade, much potential was wasted for the sake of new astral flows.

**EternalSnow** · 2010-03-02 13:59

maybe they will eventually release gear that would help you control them or something. I hope ;;

**Kenji** · 2010-03-02 15:22

Originally Posted by Spira

There's a difference between saying 'i think this ability will work this way' and 'oh, you know Perfect Defense is not ever going to be 100%, not gonna happen bitches'.

If you really think Perfect Defense is going to be 100% physical and magical reduction, you're deluded. There's no polite way of saying it, if you have any inkling of SE's past with this game. I mean, Paladin's invincible is 100% physical, but not magic, and you think they are going to make a SMN's 2 hour VASTLY better than a paladin? Even *IF* it somehow turns out to be 100%, I can't see it lasting more than 20-30 seconds at most, which just took all your mp and you're useless.

saying its Ruinous Omen II may not be too far from reality but its not like Ruinous Omen sux either. It's pretty hax in the right situation (eg Einherjar).

People take SMN's to Einherjar? I must confess, I only ever really used SMN in Limbus, and a Ruinous Omen is nice on Limbus's KB. For everything else, it's nerfed to hell, like Ronin said. If you're seriously expecting Zantetsuken to be somehow awesome...

PS. If you're using Astral Flow BPs, which people DO actually use on SMN when the situation arises, you'll still be left with no MP anyway. At least this time all that extra MP you blow matters.

There are only 2 situations in which an intelligent SMN uses an astral flow ability: when astralburning, or during low capped BCNMs like the early CoP missions, which are having their cap removed. I suppose there are a couple more: when playing around for an MB for shits and giggles, or you're low on mp anyway(just above 150), and decide to pop it as a last gasp. Note that in this case, Zanky would suck anyway, as low mp means extremely low accuracy and damage.

And from the looks of it, neither Odin nor Alexander are commanded by a BP to execute their moves. It's just the spell summoning, so you could easily possibly throw up another avatar for the first 2m30s of Astral Flow, use your BP Rage and Ward without restraint. Do a Siphon or w/e to get MP back to near full, then summon them and blow all your MP.

Do a siphon to get back full mp... I'm sorry, do you play FFXI? Tell me how, exactly, a 300mp siphon is going to fill your 1200 MP bar? I suppose it means you were dicking around for the first 2m30s of Astral Flow, doing something like 2 pred claws. But really think about it, because using that attack leaves with you with NO mp. When it's over, you're useless and you've already used your siphon. You're dead weight. Thus Zantetsuken on an HNM better do a shit ton of damage to be worth 1200mp.

For contrast, with a bard on Odin, I can keep Garuda going for the full 10-15 minutes of the fight(if it goes that long), doing pred claws once every 45 seconds while having her out most of the time doing melee, with clever use of siphon, sublimation, and a conjurer's ring. I'm gonna make a bet that will do more damage in that 10-15 mins, then I would if I blew 1200mp to do 2-3k damage and then sat on my ass for 5 minutes.

So, please feel free to toss out situations and mechanics where you feel Perfect Defense and Zantetsuken would be useful, because I see very *small* areas where they *might* be useful when I give SE the full benefit of the doubt that they will be OMWTF AWESOME! I stopped being naive some time ago.

The biggest problem with Zantetsuken is that it can miss. If you have four mobs on you and you pull out Odin, you could miss all four, or only kill one. The risk is pretty big, unless it's always guaranteed that two will die, which would make it the strongest 2 hour in the entire game. Like Ruinous Omen, it's going to be nerfed to hell and back; I really don't see SE making SMN's 2 hour THAT good. And if they did... well, now it justifies keeping SMN weak elsewhere, because we have a strong 2 hour!

Like people have said, if you have 4 adds on you, pull out Shiva for Sleepga or Diabolos for Nightmare, depending on mobs. You can usually get a few, and at least they'll all smack the avatar for a bit giving the rest of your team a breather. Meanwhile, you run far enough away to resummon and continue to occupy the attention of the one who comes after you. This is like Summoner 101 here; it works for 90% of the game.

**Spira** · 2010-03-02 17:25