alexander/odin speculation

[Indalecia]

What the hell is going on in here? All we get is the one 2hour move? Nothing else?

I cry foul

[Yubar]

Does anyone else think that SE might make us have to either pick Odin or Alexander, and can't have both?

[LinkNZ]

Count me included in the 'is that it?' SMN pile. ;(

I dunno, for me the fun of SMN is running round with a cool avatar from FF legend following you. I don't want to be like SMN mobs who 2hr then an avatar pops and does a move then goes again.

If you can fight with them regularly during the 2hr that wouldn't be 'as' bad. But still the whole thing comes back to why did it take soooo long just to implement it if that is all they're gonna do?

[Kenji]

Dunno who is putting thoughts into your head, but I didnt say I thought it'd be 100% physical and magical reduction. I wouldn't rule it out either. You don't think SE would do a lot of things, but they just declared a new level cap of 99. Expect to be surprised.

Yes, I fully expect SE to completely fulfill all my wishes and dreams. They've always done so well in the past, like making BST into such a great class that can contribute awesomely in the HNM scene. Wouldn't you agree?

Once again. I never said anything about expecting Zantetsuken to be awesome. Honestly I dont think I actually made any statement of that kind. I just don't expect it to suck as much as most people are QQing at it.

Well, that's your opinion, of course. You're welcome to have it, and ignore any kind of thoughtful implementation with how it could possibly work. You might want to head back to someplace like KI or Alla, where thinking about how things will work isn't really needed. For people like we, we like a little thought put into posts, some good ole fashioned math, so we can evaluate all the good and the bad and determine what works best.

Have fun!

Intelligent SMN don't limit themselves to absolute situation rules. And they're removing the cap on CoP zones. They haven't said anything about BCs.

Cool, so Diamond Dust will actually see some use outside of astral burning. But it would be rather strange to remove level caps from promies, but leaving it intact for the BC. I think it more likely for them to remove those caps, too, seeing as how Zilart, ToAU, and WotG BC's don't have caps. It would be making CoP just like the rest.

So, according to you, an intelligent SMN is someone who only uses AFBP during manaburns and BCs, and now you're telling me if I'm using P.Claws in Astral Flow its considered dicking around. Obviously I was talking about stuff like P.Claws instead of AFBPs. If you seriously assumed I meant AFBP -> Siphon to near full MP, then you're retarded because that isn't remotely possible.

So, it's really smart for a mage to blow 1200mp for a spell that does 2k damage? Wow, you almost get 2damage per point of mp spent! I love your efficiency! Shall we ask some Black Mages if they get anywhere near that efficiency with their spells? I bet they'll be jealous!

Oh, and a SMN is already "dead weight" for 45s between every BP in most typical HNM setting. This changes nothing. Every job has some form of downtime.

Okay, it's obvious you don't play SMN, or at least you're a pretty bad one. While my avatar is doing stuff, I"m casting regens, or status cures, or regular cures, or aspiring... you know, those spells from our subjob? You may not realize it, but casting spells requires mp... something you no longer have after blowing all 1200 of it.

Also since we don't know the actual damage numbers on Zantetsuken with a full MP pool, we don't know if it'll be worse, better or it'll even out. If it can do even 3k on Odin, then it'll already have beaten simply BPing for 3minutes and be worth that downtime.

Again, you fail math. Please, do an damge-per-mp-spent comparison. 1200 mp to do 3k damage. Feel free to seriously ask your BLMs if that kind of efficiency is good. Let me know what they say, because I'm really interested.

And I'm being conservative, because most SMNs have over 1200 easily, unless they're Galka. Now imagine Lv99; think we can break 2k mp? That's 2000 mp to do 3k damage? Maybe 4k by then? Because if they are doing a percentage of mp remaining to determine damage and instant-kill success, having a higher max mp is actually harmful.

Either way, 0 mp is hardly as debilitative as you make it out to be.

Summoner: "I don't have any mp, but it's okay, guys! I has me a staff! I'll get in there and melee and we'll kill those things really fast!"

You're right. I completely overlooked our Staff Skill!

Darling, I practically invented avatar kiting. I know this better than you do.
You're not exactly making a point here.

Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you were supposed to be some kind of legend. It kinda confused me, since you think a summoner with 0 mp is cool, as is spending 1200mp to do 3k damage. I guess, because you inviting avatar kiting, you are completely immune to criticism and everything you say must be 100% right.

Well, your superior debating skills have won this round!

The difference between Zantetsuken and what you're saying is that you can only do it every 2hrs and the act of using Zantetsuken does not put you on the hate list if you're still not on it, which can be very useful.
It does bring your MP to 0, but it also does instantly kill enemies.

Maybe. Depends on how much mp you have. I guess SMN's should avoid spending much, if any of their MP, so they are always ready to Zanky. I'm sure end-game linkshells will be eager to bring SMN's along to stand around and do nothing, in the off-chance they are needed to kill multiple mobs at once... and then resume standing around and doing nothing. Hmm, I should tell my linkshell I'm only coming SMN to events now...

You're not really going to spend mp, are you? I mean, if you get mobs when you're at half mp, so that Zanky's accuracy is really screwed... I'm sure it might be somewhat decent when used at full mp, but below 75% I'm guessing it's going to suck. I'm just really trying to put a SMN's 2 hour in perspective with other jobs, because in the best care scenario, we'd blow other jobs away. Who cares about EES? So in one sense, giving SMN's a totally awesome 2 hour, is justification for keep the job down.

Also..
If you're soloing and there are 4 adds, you're already screwed regardless. But if somehow you're not, then it won't matter because you're still not going to be able to kill all of them alone. Avatar instinct would wake at least 1 slept mob unless you dismiss and if you're avatar kiting multiple mobs, you're only going to accumulate hate to the point where the fresh avatar won't be able to get it off or run out of MP.

Never said soloing. Obviously, you're screwed at that point, unless you already have Diabolos or Shiva out. But when a party gets mobs on them, you do have time to summon something to take care of them.

If its a PT setting and other people already have hate (likely) then neither Shiva nor Diabolos will help much because their hate won't surpass other PT members until they probably die.

Seriously? You really don't see how that would help? When stuff links, no one has hate on it, so any action will get it off them. Plus, you are trying to SLEEP them, which if it works, means your party can work on killing one at a time, before the others wake up. Why are you on BG again, if you don't even understand the concept of sleeping things to kill them one at a time? If that tactic is too advanced for you...

long story short, with Odin, you're basically opting for 'all or nothing'.
Using him greatly increases your 'damage/kill' potential in any given link/add situation, but if he fails completely, then your chance of dying is also that much higher. It's called trading off.

And apparently you've developed Stockholm syndrome. SMN's don't need trade-offs; we need straight buffs. BSTs need straight buffs. Sort of like PUP is getting.

In short, I'd posit that if you have multiple adds on a party, your odds of surviving are better if you try to sleep them and kill them one at a time, then blowing all your mp trying to insta-kill. Sure, it *might* work. But when it doesn't, you're screwed because you have no mp. Let the melee handle the killing, k?

[ZhiGaruda]

Mostly stupid scenario's that are arguing a point I'm making based on absolutely no facts at all

http://37stories.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/stupid.jpg

[Kairos]

Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you were supposed to be some kind of legend. It kinda confused me, since you think a summoner with 0 mp is cool, as is spending 1200mp to do 3k damage. I guess, because you inviting avatar kiting, you are completely immune to criticism and everything you say must be 100% right.

I was wondering when you were finally going to stop responding to Spira as if he were some kind of Summoner Amateur, stating the obvious in each of your posts. He's been playing smn practically since the day Carbuncle's ruby became available, you're barking up the wrong tree. I honestly can't believe you're still around under the same name posting all your misinformed nonsense.

[nitsuj]

They could change Astral Flow with the patch.

Odin and Alex could remain about after their ability.

They could have other Blood Pacts other than the revealed ones, but only be allowed to summon once per 2 hours.

They could change their mind and release Cait Sith and Fat Chocobo instead.

The world could end tomorrow.

Truth be told, you guys have no clue. You just like to argue. Chill until we see some facts, ok?

[Karbuncle]

0MP Staff crack

Want you to uh, Remember one important aspect of Astral Flow... Avatars are free.

And to be frank if you're in any linkshell worth a damn you'll be getting at least COR roll or BRD refresh whilst its happening. Now, Assuming you're subbing SCH and were smart enough to put up sublimation to full before Astral Flowing you pretty much expect something like this

During those 3 minutes with say, 5MP Refresh (Trait, Body, Double Ballad), During those 3 minute you'll accumulate 300MP, or 100MP/minute.

On top of about a 200MP from Sublimation and another 320~ Elemental Siphon after all is said and done you can get over 820MP during the duration of Astral Flow, 520~ of it within just a few seconds.

With that being said, i can't recall very many times ive used Astral Flow for the actual Bloodpact instead of for conserving MP and recovering. Still, its clear this is focused on Odin/Alexander of which will automatically use their AF BPs... My guess is Alexanders would probably last the full 3 minutes of Astral flow, so that 820MP will come right back to you no strings attached but Odin's seems like 1 hit/use so...

Thats pretty much all i wanted to comment on is that any SMN worth a damn will be prepared for the aftermath of Astral flow and have a few of these things ready.

[Plow]

Dunno who is putting thoughts into your head, but I didnt say I thought it'd be 100% physical and magical reduction. I wouldn't rule it out either. You don't think SE would do a lot of things, but they just declared a new level cap of 99. Expect to be surprised.



Once again. I never said anything about expecting Zantetsuken to be awesome. Honestly I dont think I actually made any statement of that kind. I just don't expect it to suck as much as most people are QQing at it.



Intelligent SMN don't limit themselves to absolute situation rules. And they're removing the cap on CoP zones. They haven't said anything about BCs.



So, according to you, an intelligent SMN is someone who only uses AFBP during manaburns and BCs, and now you're telling me if I'm using P.Claws in Astral Flow its considered dicking around. Obviously I was talking about stuff like P.Claws instead of AFBPs. If you seriously assumed I meant AFBP -> Siphon to near full MP, then you're retarded because that isn't remotely possible.

Oh, and a SMN is already "dead weight" for 45s between every BP in most typical HNM setting. This changes nothing. Every job has some form of downtime.



If you're going to do the whole opportunity cost shit, at least use a proper time frame.
You only need about 3-4 minutes to fully recover from blowing a full MP pool and then sitting on your ass (5mins is way more time than needed), so if you want to compare that with Garuda, compare with Garuda's dmg within that same 3-4minute time frame, because after fully recovering MP the SMN that AFed can do the exact same thing that you mentioned.

Also since we don't know the actual damage numbers on Zantetsuken with a full MP pool, we don't know if it'll be worse, better or it'll even out. If it can do even 3k on Odin, then it'll already have beaten simply BPing for 3minutes and be worth that downtime.

Either way, 0 mp is hardly as debilitative as you make it out to be.



Darling, I practically invented avatar kiting. I know this better than you do.
You're not exactly making a point here.

The difference between Zantetsuken and what you're saying is that you can only do it every 2hrs and the act of using Zantetsuken does not put you on the hate list if you're still not on it, which can be very useful.
It does bring your MP to 0, but it also does instantly kill enemies.

Also..
If you're soloing and there are 4 adds, you're already screwed regardless. But if somehow you're not, then it won't matter because you're still not going to be able to kill all of them alone. Avatar instinct would wake at least 1 slept mob unless you dismiss and if you're avatar kiting multiple mobs, you're only going to accumulate hate to the point where the fresh avatar won't be able to get it off or run out of MP.

If its a PT setting and other people already have hate (likely) then neither Shiva nor Diabolos will help much because their hate won't surpass other PT members until they probably die.

long story short, with Odin, you're basically opting for 'all or nothing'.
Using him greatly increases your 'damage/kill' potential in any given link/add situation, but if he fails completely, then your chance of dying is also that much higher. It's called trading off.

If you understood the hate mechanics you're arguing about you'd realize Shiva's sleepga absolutely clowns odin for dropping multiple aggro.

Hell, just plain knowing how avatar aggro works period is much more effective than standing there trying to pull out odin.

[Shin Volcano]

You seem to place a lot of faith in the death 2hr... You really think SE is gonna let SMN just one shit things with 100% acc? I bet it will have like 20% knowing thier track record. It is fact that this was poorly executed. They could have done a million other things to add these new avatars into the game. Alexander and Odin aren't even special... like I said before they should be on par with the other celestial avatars. Hell even the other avatars in their waking the beast form are stronger than Alexander, why he is placed under 2hr?

1st of all, No, if you actually read what i said, it was the concept of a job getting that ability, not sure where you thought i put "alot of faith in it" it's also pretty cool that you can infact say how accuracte you think it is and it's not even out yet. again, you're trying to predict shit from things that are not out yet.

But i still await you're better ways of these "a million" things better, since none of this is good enough for you, why don't you wait for the damn update before you go jumping to conclusions about how accurate a ability can be without tests.

In FF8, when Odin appeared you knew the battle was over because it was an OFFLINE game and one-hit KOs wont do much to break the overall balance of the game. Diabolos also came from FF8 with Demi-style attacks and look how nerfed he ended up in XI through Ruinous Omen. Zantetsuken is a one-hit KO attack in an online game..... it's going to be nerfed to all hell.

Most of Alexander's pacts in his BCNM could have added an element to Summoner far greater than 'zerg JA' in:

-Divine Spear (Attack Down)
-Radiant Sacrament (MDEF Down)
-Mega Holy (Light damage)
-Gospel of the Lost (Spring Water II)
-Void of Repetance (Terrorize/Stun)

I actually thought he would just get Divine judgement instead, or at least give a multitude of those pacts, but apprently it's automatic, Odin's pacts also are pretty powerful in them selvs, i don't even know what would have been fair to give him..

There are only 2 situations in which an intelligent SMN uses an astral flow ability: when astralburning, or during low capped BCNMs like the early CoP missions, which are having their cap removed. I suppose there are a couple more: when playing around for an MB for shits and giggles, or you're low on mp anyway(just above 150), and decide to pop it as a last gasp. Note that in this case, Zanky would suck anyway, as low mp means extremely low accuracy and damage.

Or they can use it to stop losing MP when soloing something challanging,

[Crab_Cake]

Again, Alexanders Perfect Defense has potential however this was toted as the "we've been working on this for a long time guys, you're gonna be thrilled!" epic moment for SMN and it turned out to be something you can only use during Astral Flow. So for 95% of SMN it'll be business as usual with a new 2hr zerg ability - this took years to concieve? Ok.

Agreed. If it weren't for SE teasing us and then taking this long to release, then this wouldn't have been as much as a big deal to complain about.

There are only 2 situations in which an intelligent SMN uses an astral flow ability: when astralburning, or during low capped BCNMs like the early CoP missions, which are having their cap removed. I suppose there are a couple more: when playing around for an MB for shits and giggles, or you're low on mp anyway(just above 150), and decide to pop it as a last gasp. Note that in this case, Zanky would suck anyway, as low mp means extremely low accuracy and damage.

Astral Flow is also useful to keep out your Light Spirit longer and make the spirits cast spells more often(-5 second delay usually but -2.5 second delay in healing/buffering mode). Now Light Spirit may not be useful most of the times but when your party or even your alliance hits 50% HP or lower, it seems to have a 50% chance to cast quick Curaga IV(which helps a lot)... or it could cast Haste or Regen I or something not so useful. But still, a 50% chance(every 12~ seconds if you have most SMN skill gear and SMN skill merits) to cast a instant cast Curaga IV isn't bad.

In the best situation(you have the highest SMN skill possible, Astral Flow, etc), Light Spirit's casting delay will be 7~ seconds or lower(I forgot exactly but FFXIclopedia has the formula for spirit casting delays). So a 50% chance to cast Curaga IV every 7 seconds your party is under 50% HP or lower is not bad.

This beats Healing Ruby II in MP efficiency(MP efficient as long as you keep it out for just one Curaga IV) and possibly even in speed(in the best situation though).

Also you can still cure and stuff while waiting for Light Spirit to cast and of course you shouldn't risk this in situations where you know plain healing is more safer.

With Astral Flow, you can just keep Light Spirit out for the full three minutes, with no MP penalty, to help heal(though it will only heal if someone reaches below 50% HP).

[frodnonnag]

Agreed. If it weren't for SE teasing us and then taking this long to release, then this wouldn't have been as much as a big deal to complain about.



Astral Flow is also useful to keep out your Light Spirit longer and make the spirits cast spells more often(-5 second delay usually but -2.5 second delay in healing/buffering mode). Now Light Spirit may not be useful most of the times but when your party or even your alliance hits 50% HP or lower, it seems to have a 50% chance to cast quick Curaga IV(which helps a lot)... or it could cast Haste or Regen I or something not so useful. But still, a 50% chance(every 12~ seconds if you have most SMN skill gear and SMN skill merits) to cast a instant cast Curaga IV isn't bad.

In the best situation(you have the highest SMN skill possible, Astral Flow, etc), Light Spirit's casting delay will be 7~ seconds or lower(I forgot exactly but FFXIclopedia has the formula for spirit casting delays). So a 50% chance to cast Curaga IV every 7 seconds your party is under 50% HP or lower is not bad.

This beats Healing Ruby II in MP efficiency(MP efficient as long as you keep it out for just one Curaga IV) and possibly even in speed(in the best situation though).

Also you can still cure and stuff while waiting for Light Spirit to cast and of course you shouldn't risk this in situations where you know plain healing is more safer.

With Astral Flow, you can just keep Light Spirit out for the full three minutes, with no MP penalty, to help heal(though it will only heal if someone reaches below 50% HP).

I mainhealed a "no healing magic" floor 100 boss with lightspirit before, the glowball is worth it.

[Cantih]

or during low capped BCNMs like the early CoP missions, which are having their cap removed.

I believe they only mentioned the AREAS are having the caps removed. Missions will likely still keep capped, like the nation dragon fights, and Fei'Yin skele fight.

[Toth]

Watching the video, I noticed that neither Odin or Alexander expended any of the SMN's mp after using their abilities.

Again though, it could be because they are special characters for Vanafest but it is something to consider.

[Silenka]

I mainhealed a "no healing magic" floor 100 boss with lightspirit before, the glowball is worth it.

Yeah except normally people wouldn't take SMN to nyzul at all as just about every other job is more useful there. I get your point, it's just kind of moot.

As for summoners being happy about this update - I really haven't seen many who are. And they shouldn't be. This is garbage. I don't care if summoning odin or alexander once every two hours cures cancer and decimates all of korroloka tunnel in one shot, it's still a bunch of garbage that they made us wait this long for...this.

SE will never stop shitting all over summoner. But hey let's give SAM some new job abilities amirite!

[Cesaria]

I mainhealed a "no healing magic" floor 100 boss with lightspirit before, the glowball is worth it.

And I've mained a floor 100 no white magic boss before with dancers roll and /dnc subjob... doesn't mean anything (just that SE's random number generator throws out some delightful combinations sometimes).

I somehow doubt a pony and a castle will fix the problems with SMN - it's SE giving them shiny toys to shut the job up for 10 minutes. Can actually see the mob restrictions for zantezuken being the beginnings of an SE "ok we're starting to get pissed off with astral burning" onslaught to be honest.

Also Alex is titchy small - if I'm getting killer robot death castle I want it to be huge... not the size of some kid's sandcastle on the beach.

[Spira]

If you understood the hate mechanics you're arguing about you'd realize Shiva's sleepga absolutely clowns odin for dropping multiple aggro.

I am contending that although Odin can probably not grab aggro when he misses, he will in fact remove aggro (by killing stuff) when he does land, which puts you in a better off situation than sleepga. But it also does have a bigger risk factor.

Also, the enmity gained to Odin from missing Zantetsuken may work differently from what we know. It isn't just a missed attack, it could also been seen as something like a missed death spell, but that is beyond what we know at this point.

And I've mained a floor 100 no white magic boss before with dancers roll and /dnc subjob

COR/DNC? really? i mean, genuinely.. really? that works?

[Plow]

Properly done, shiva will remove aggro without having to even land sleepga on all but 1.

[Gustaf the Voidbringer]

Also Alex is titchy small - if I'm getting killer robot death castle I want it to be huge... not the size of some kid's sandcastle on the beach.

I'm not sure if I paid attention to ToAU's story correctly, but isn't Alexander's true form made from entire sections of the Alzadaal Undersea Ruins?



...that's a big robot.

http://i50.tinypic.com/nvybm.jpg

...big enough to fit MORE robots in there. Chariots can transform into jets, I think.

[Spira]

But it would be rather strange to remove level caps from promies, but leaving it intact for the BC. I think it more likely for them to remove those caps, too, seeing as how Zilart, ToAU, and WotG BC's don't have caps. It would be making CoP just like the rest.

slightly OT, but.. SE isn't always sensible. Also see Rank 3 dragon, Archlich Tabar.

So, it's really smart for a mage to blow 1200mp for a spell that does 2k damage? Wow, you almost get 2damage per point of mp spent! I love your efficiency! Shall we ask some Black Mages if they get anywhere near that efficiency with their spells? I bet they'll be jealous!

Again, you fail math. Please, do an damge-per-mp-spent comparison. 1200 mp to do 3k damage. Feel free to seriously ask your BLMs if that kind of efficiency is good. Let me know what they say, because I'm really interested.

I don't think you realise how moot DMG/MP efficiency is if you don't put a specific timeframe to it. Time is a limited resource that factors into every equation, and if its a BC or HNM setting you're always limited in some form.

If you want to talk about efficiency, a BRD spamming Foe Requiem for hours on end could do as much damage as a single casting of AMII. 0 mp! Super efficient no?

And that logic cannot apply universally across the game either since that would mean all melee jobs are infinitely more efficient than mages, requiring 0mp at all.

Time is the only common denominator we can work with. There's a reason why concepts like DPS exist.

Summoner: "I don't have any mp, but it's okay, guys! I has me a staff! I'll get in there and melee and we'll kill those things really fast!"

You're right. I completely overlooked our Staff Skill!

Not going to comment since this might actually become feasible by the time 99 comes around.

Well, your superior debating skills have won this round!

iknorite?