Final Fantasy XIII

[Raen Ryong]

It was moreso that they thought they were defending Orphan. And then suddenly, after defeating Bart in the very same chamber, Orphan attacks them. The choice is then kill or be killed. Granted you may argue this is a selfish action.

Of course they could've applied the logic that Bart wouldn't spend all of that time/resources training them into essentially killing machines if he could kill off Orphan simply using normal people, but hey. As long as there's a chance that Orphan may fall they really had no choice.

[miokomioko]

(little late) The group didn't go back to Cocoon to destroy Orphan. They went back to stop the Calvary (protecting Orphan) and destroy Barthandalus because he was the fal'Cie who's specific duty was to orchestrate Cocoon's destruction. I think the only reason they were initially forced to fight Orphan was because Barthandalus ended up fusing with him, and to me, insinuated that Barthandalus and Orphan were really the same, basic entity while only illustrated separate as their alternate forms of human/bird (which were always together).

[Niiro]

Back to Cocoon*

Yea I get it but it still annoys me how they never took a moment to contemplate what they were about to do in the final moments before killing Orphan, there's not even a moment of doubt, they think killing him is what they should be doing and that it'll fix everything.

Tbh I think a better way for the ending to play out would have been something like killing Barth/Orphan as a pre-final boss, then the Maker shows up, and either make him the real final boss or have Ragnarok fight him or something and after beating him back to wherever-the-hell he grants humans the right to live on their own terms (saves Cocoon in a similar manner to the way it happened in the game).

Also during the whole calamity, make like a huge portion of the people die so that 1: the ending isn't so conveniently and sickeningly happy and 2: to deal with the problem of tens of millions of stranded refugees in a foreign, hostile world (like I mentioned earlier).

One can only assume the reasons the Maker made the fal'Cie servants to humans because he thought they were weak and helpless or something, but to see the fal'Cie turn on them and try to destroy them only to have them fight back and win one could twist it so that he (the Maker) sees the error in his ways (creating the Cocoon fal'Cie as servants and the humans as pampered wusses with no real purpose in life) and realize that humans are capable of much more than he thought and grant them the opportunity to be self-reliant and live as they chose.

I was really hoping we'd see the Maker show up and maybe get some answers about him in general, but the way the story did end kind of left me with some plot-hole blue balls.

Edit: also, in general, the final boss didn't feel quite as epic as most in the series. The Maker would have made a much more flashy/dramatic fight.

[Eticket]

Barth never intended Calvary reach Orphan at all. He just tricked them into going there so that he could turn them into Ci'eth.

Finally got the plat today. 130 hours. Loved this game but I'm happy I never need to pick it up again.

[Niiro]

I'm confused, what good did turning the Cavalry into Ci'eth do him.

I just assumed it was a side effect of them coming too close to him, something that he couldn't necessarily control, like how they can't self-terminate or directly harm humans, a reflexive defense mechanism.

[Eticket]

Just more shit to try to fuck with and break the spirits of the main characters. I think he also intended they push the main party towards Orphans Cradle.

The post-game load screen talks about his motivations for it.

[Niiro]

Just more shit to try to fuck with and break the spirits of the main characters. I think he also intended they push the main party towards Orphans Cradle.

The post-game load screen talks about his motivations for it.

Shows up when you load a completed game? Might go look at it.

[miokomioko]

The Maker would have made a much more flashy/dramatic fight.

I feel like that would have been Necros all over again (which I thought was incredibly lame). Also, I don't think the Maker could have shown up at all without the mass-sacrifice happening... AKA: mission failed. The lore describes how the Maker lies beyond the "doors" that the one's soul travels through after death. The fal'Cie theorize that with enough souls going through that door, all at once via mass-sacrifice, they would be thrown open, allowing either the Maker to pass back through or some similar effect.

[Niiro]

I don't think it'd be Necron-ish really, we knew the Maker was around, we knew he was powerful, we knew the fal'Cie were trynna bring him back, in the final cutscenes we even see the "door" materializing before Ragnafangille does it's thing and stops Cocoon from crashing.

I'd have been ok with like, half of humanity dying for the Maker to show up for a more interesting ending, as it is were supposed to believe a giant sphere the size of a small moon falls into a huge spike of magma and everyone's A-ok (-.-).

Would also make for a much more meaningful ending, an actual hardship for the human race as a whole rather than 6 people that conveniently fixed everything with no discernable downside (Fang/Vanille going into stasis again definitely doesn't count). The ending just felt kind of pointless I guess, lacked a sense of drama, sacrifice, gravitas, what have you.

Even with the ending we were given it was all too peachy considering everything mankind had known just came crashing down (literally and figuratively) around them. I remember one part before the cradle area there's a long hallway full of NPCs that are all scared shitless and confused about what's going on, that sentiment should have pervaded a bit more in the aftermath I think.

[Toth]

Back to Cocoon*

Yea I get it but it still annoys me how they never took a moment to contemplate what they were about to do in the final moments before killing Orphan, there's not even a moment of doubt, they think killing him is what they should be doing and that it'll fix everything.

The reason they actually decided to fight and destroy Ophan is actually stated. When they 'turn' into Cieth (either as an illusion by Bart or if they truely became C'ieth and were then restored by the Maker/ Etro), they see a vision of the future where they are all together and Cocoon has been saved. They know (just as they 'knew' what Ragnarok was after their branding) this future will only be possible if Orphan is destroyed. The team basically bet everything that defeating Orphan and freeing humans from Fal'Cie control will make their dream come true, the impossible a reality.

People often whine that the team did exactly what Barthandelus wanted in killing Orphan but that is simply not true. The six went into Orphan's Cradle to stop the Calvary and defeat Barth. They wanted to PROTECT Orphan. Only when Orphan merges with Bart and reveals to the party that Orphan WANTS to die that the party is forced to wage a no-win battle. Bart was banking on one of the group changing into Ragnarok in order to destroy Orphan's protective barrier and defeat him. Fang ultimately is forced to do this but right before she does so, the Maker intervenes again (you can see this as the 'door' appears behind Orphan as she is able to deliver the killing blow), shows Fang her memories to calm her, and revert her to her true form. Bart's plans are essentially thwarted and his anger at this allows for his guard to be down and his death to finally come.

In short, as much as Bart wanted everything to happen according to his plan, Etro and the party ultimately broke free of his will, destroyed him, and saved Cocoon.

Now Lindzei...I hope we find out more about this god. He (or she...she is actually the female part of the Orphan final boss and not Minerva as people think - confirmed in the Ultimania as being Bart's idealized version of 'her) seems to be the Satan/fallen angel analogy in the saga, tempting humanity with a false paradise in order to ultimately destroy them.

[Nevex]

Now Lindzei...I hope we find out more about this god. He (or she...she is actually the female part of the Orphan final boss and not Minerva as people think - confirmed in the Ultimania as being Bart's idealized version of 'her) seems to be the Satan/fallen angel analogy in the saga, tempting humanity with a false paradise in order to ultimately destroy them.

I thought Menrva is Lindzei, thought it's never openly said so.
However there's a pretty strong hint that suggests so: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Menrva
Look at the face figure on Menrva's body and confront it with Lindzei's statue in the Narthex http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...ex_lindzei.jpg.
It's hard to see from this picture but they're very similiar.

Another thing that suggests that Menrva = Lindzei is that she flies in Orphan's pool before emerging in its fused form.

Finally, another piece of evidence comes form the Cocoon l'Cie brand. According to the Ultimania guide, the brand is supposed to represent Lindzei (source: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L%27Cie). If you take a look at Menrva's wing you'll notice the exact same symbol there.

[Toth]

I thought Menrva is Lindzei, thought it's never openly said so.
However there's a pretty strong hint that suggests so: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Menrva
Look at the face figure on Menrva's body and confront it with Lindzei's statue in the Narthex http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...ex_lindzei.jpg.
It's hard to see from this picture but they're very similiar.

Another thing that suggests that Menrva = Lindzei is that she flies in Orphan's pool before emerging in its fused form.

Finally, another piece of evidence comes form the Cocoon l'Cie brand. According to the Ultimania guide, the brand is supposed to represent Lindzei (source: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L%27Cie). If you take a look at Menrva's wing you'll notice the exact same symbol there.

Very interesting information but I believe the Analects say that Lindzei abandoned the Cocoon Fal'Cie and his/her creation after it was completed. He/she probably escaped into another world to create havoc (maybe versus/agito's worlds??). It def. seems that Bart's plan is to summon Lindzei back by killing everyone on Cocoon and starting over. He keeps mentioning the Maker in his speeches but while this terminology suggests one god figure, I read that the original Japanese text used 'gods' rather than a singular Maker in describing the creators of Pulse so it would make sense that Etro and Lindzei would be two different gods with opposing views and goals. Etro creates, Lindzei deceives and destroys, etc.

Bart to me comes off as a child rejected by his parents who will do anything to win back their love. I feel he has really been unfairly undervalued as a FF villain when he was quite devious and cunning. Better than a mama boy's swordsman anyway XD


edit: It could also very well be that Barth wants the Maker to come back and not Lindzei now that I review the material. The fal'Cie become such fascinating creatures when you see them as angels tasked to thanklessly watch over a world for eternity, left behind by their God with only humans whose souls can return to the Maker when they die while the fal Cie are bound never to return. A prospect of that could easily turn a suspectible Fal'Cie to turn to a false God (which Bart did when Lindzei created Cocoon) in hopes of release.

[Nevex]

I think Barth was actually pretty well received as a villain. Overall ok design, great boss battles, great music theme and awesome VA.
The scene where he desguises himself as Serah earned him tons of cool points.

[Toth]

I think Barth was actually pretty well received as a villain. Overall ok design, great boss battles, great music theme and awesome VA.
The scene where he desguises himself as Serah earned him tons of cool points.

Hmm, I alot of the criticism I see in regards to FFXIII's story seem to be directed at him and his 'weak' status as a FF Villain. I found him more interesting and ruthless than Vayne and many other FF villains.

[orson]

Hmm, I alot of the criticism I see in regards to FFXIII's story seem to be directed at him and his 'weak' status as a FF Villain. I found him more interesting and ruthless than Vayne and many other FF villains.

In fairness there wasn't really that much build up and screen time to make him the big villain. You kept playing the game after Bart's big story reveal going, "Ok, so all these Fal'cie want the maker to return." When are we going to have to fight against the others? It just seemed way to direct, very rarely do you have it where the main dude that's perceived as the villain from the is actually the main threat. The only tweeeeeeeest was that the primarch or whatever was a fal'cie which wasn't really explained either. Why was Bart the only fal'cie that took human form? Do all fal'cie have this ability? If the maker created the fal'cie to care for the humans then what was Bart's roll and when did he break away from it?

Once you fight him twice and then he still turns out to be the last boss it just seems like an anticlimactic let down. Also it's not until afterwords when he's like, "You know how you're all being forced into destroying Cocoon???? That was all me and my super duper manipulative powers!!!!" It was ridiculous to believe he could have predicted the events would unfold in that exact fashion. Which basically means anyone could have made it onto that pulse fal'cie and been transformed. In short your characters were just dumb enough to be in the right place at the wrong time (see Hope as the prime example.)

Vayne's a bad example because he really wasn't the main villain or at least he shouldn't have been. Venet and the entities aiding and influencing Vayne should have been the main threat. Both FFXII and FFXIII suffered because of this and made it feel like the story was short and far too open ended. I do believe that this is probably the fault of SE themselves though because given the monetary success of FFX-2 they wanted to leave the stories very open ended. That way they could just further expand on existing elements in play. Heck they did release a sequel to FFXII albeit on a shitty system and having extremely weak gameplay compared to FFXII.

[Nevex]

very rarely do you have it where the main dude that's perceived as the villain from the is actually the main threat.

Ehh not really. In the FF series it's something like:
FFI: Garland
FFII: Emperor
FFIII: Xande>CoD
FFIV: Golbez>Zeromus
FFV: Exdeath
FFVI: Gesthal>Kefka
FFVII: Shinra+Sephiroth
FFVIII: Edea>Ultimecia
FFIX: Branhe>Kuja
FFX: Sin>Sin+Yu Yevon
FFXII: Vayne
FFXIII: Bart>Bart+Orphan

So technically villains in FF are almost all very well-defined from the get go. There are a few twists here and there, but other than Golbez and Edea being mind controlled and Kefka taking over you can easily identify the main villains in most FFs.

[Kaslo]

Meh FFVI was Kefka all along, Gesthal was a figurehead controlled by Kefka and you could tell from the beginning.

[Stiker]

I loved the story of FFXIII, but I think one of the biggest downfalls was that a lot of the blanks were filled in via the datalog and the analycts. The analycts are probably the biggest culprit here because you unlock those from hunts that you really wouldn't even think of attempting until you beat the story, and even then, if you don't check the datalog for them, you won't even know they exist.

Now, just because of the way I play (aka, I like to explore everything), I was able to keep up with the datalog which made me enjoy the story a lot more. However, I know that not everyone will do that and it seriously harms the story for those that just play through IMO.

[Toth]

Orson: Barth never 'had' a human form. It's all an illusion he has created. He is a trickster and deceiver just like his daddy...or mommy? There is some speculation that Mervh is his 'true' form.

Striker: I think the Analects and Datalogs were a good example of avoiding out-of-place character disposition that plagues too many RPGs. These characters know what a Fal'cie is, what Pulse is, etc since they have been influenced by them their whole lives. Why should they start asking about what L'Cie/ Fal'Cie are or what Pulse is to explain to an audience they do not know is there? The datalog was a good decision to avoid this (imho) and keep the story focused. Unfortunatly, it seems a large portion of a gaming population needs their characters to break 'character' and explain things they should have no reason to explain...or a random NPC in town talking about events/world history for no reason lol

[Stiker]

Striker: I think the Analects and Datalogs were a good example of avoiding out-of-place character disposition that plagues too many RPGs. These characters know what a Fal'cie is, what Pulse is, etc since they have been influenced by them their whole lives. Why should they start asking about what L'Cie/ Fal'Cie are or what Pulse is to explain to an audience they do not know is there? The datalog was a good decision to avoid this (imho) and keep the story focused. Unfortunatly, it seems a large portion of a gaming population needs their characters to break 'character' and explain things they should have no reason to explain...or a random NPC in town talking about events/world history for no reason lol

For the most part you are right; however, there are still big gaps in the history of Pulse and having all of humanity wiped out on Pulse doesn't help fill in the blanks.

Don't get me wrong, it makes perfect sense in the story, but I think using the datalog only to do that wasn't the best idea mostly because it wasn't well integrated into the story like you would normally expect. If you had been able to find the datalog/analects on the ground or after you repaired that robot in Oreba would've been a much better connection.