Miscarriage: Murder!

[Alleya]

The Next Anti-Choice Target: Miscarriage
A new Utah law could charge women with homicide if they miscarry, making women's rights advocates concerned that women will be brought up on murder charges for drinking, failing to wear a seatbelt, or falling down the stairs.

The bill passed Utah's state legislature last Thursday and still needs final approval by the governor, but it continues to gain attention this week for its unusually restrictive language. It doesn't address legal abortion, but allows punishment up to life in prison for an "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" that leads to a miscarriage or abortion without a doctor's supervision. Especially concerning to some Utah Democrats and many women's rights activists is the word "reckless" — writing for RH Reality Check, Rachel Larris says,

"Using the legal standard of "reckless behavior" all a district attorney needs to show is that a woman behaved in a manner that is thought to cause miscarriage, even if she didn't intend to lose the pregnancy. Drink too much alcohol and have a miscarriage? Under the new law such actions could be cause for prosecution."

Women might also make themselves open to prosecution if they failed to wear a seatbelt and got in a car accident, if they stayed with an abusive partner, or even if they fell down the stairs, like a woman in Iowa who found herself jailed on suspicion of "attempted feticide." This woman eventually got off only because she wasn't yet in her third trimester — but unlike Iowa's feticide law, Utah's new bill would apply throughout pregnancy. Given that 15-20% of recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage, 80% of those in the first trimester, Utah could have a lot of work ahead. Dan Savage writes,

"If every miscarriage is a potential homicide, how does Utah avoid launching a criminal investigation every time a woman has a miscarriage? [...] And how is Utah supposed to know when a pregnant woman has had a miscarriage? You're going to have to create some sort of pregnancy registry to keep track of all those fetuses, Utah. Perhaps you could start issuing "conception certificates" to women who get pregnant? And then, if there isn't a baby within nine months of the issuance of a conception certificate, the woman could be hauled in for questioning and she could be indicted for criminal homicide if it's determined that she intentionally or accidentally induced a miscarriage."

Of course, Utah probably isn't going to create such a registry, but its new legislation is striking for the way it targets women themselves, as opposed to abortion providers. Lynn Paltrow, executive director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women, says, "For all these years the anti-choice movement has said ‘we want to outlaw abortion, not put women in jail, but what this law says is ‘no, we really want to put women in jail.'" And Jill of Feministe asks why, if anti-choice advocates are so concerned about miscarried fetuses, they aren't "trying to find a cure for the close to 50 percent of fertilized eggs that naturally don't implant, and are flushed out of the woman's body." Her answer: "the concern here isn't really about fetuses or life or any of that. It's about punishing women."

http://jezebel.com/5479032/the-next-...et-miscarriage

http://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbag.../Goreld_01.jpg

[Drex]

Soon it will be illegal just to be a woman

Dark days ahead my friends

[Woozie]

Drinking while pregnant should be illegal anyways, but the prosecution for falling down the stairs is beyond ridiculous.

[archibaldcrane]

Given that 15-20% of recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage

Holy shit. I had no idea that miscarriage was -that- common.

[Kerberoz]

It's actually far more common than that if you count all the pregnancies that miscarry after a few days and the woman is never aware of.

[Woozie]

It's actually far more common than that if you count all the pregnancies that miscarry after a few days and the woman is never aware of.

In that case, I think it goes up to like 1/2. So 1/2 of all women are vicious murders. Clearly we need to get them off the streets before they hurt anybody else.

[Lucavi]

I can't decide who hates women more: Utah or Australia.

[Egon]

Most of the time, if a pregnant woman is murdered, the criminal is usually triad for killing 2 people. I don't see this law being any different. If a woman wants to kill her own baby, I'm pretty sure there are clinics for that.

[zoobernut]

Egon!

Obviously it is Utaustralia. The new super power in the world against drugs, terrorists, and women.

[archibaldcrane]

I don't see this law being any different. If a woman wants to kill her own baby, I'm pretty sure there are clinics for that.

You don't see this law being any different?

A woman, who has no intention of harming her fetus, accidentally falls down the stairs, and is then put on trial for murder?

The difference, you fucking moron, is that this law covers unintentional acts.

[Alleya]

Most of the time, if a pregnant woman is murdered, the criminal is usually triad for killing 2 people. I don't see this law being any different. If a woman wants to kill her own baby, I'm pretty sure there are clinics for that.

So..criminal investigation into every miscarriage, placing the burden on every woman who has one to prove she didn't intend to kill her kid?

kk

[Syntex]

Drinking while pregnant should be illegal anyways, but the prosecution for falling down the stairs is beyond ridiculous.

Case-by-case basis but then again if you just, you know, 'accidently tripped' can you really refute it unless you get a polygraph...

I think we should hold women to a standard that they should take care of themselves while they carry a child but then again if they just have an abortion that would be murder depending on your point of view or from Utah's apparently.

The major factor in this is when do we determine that a child is a child and not a piece of flesh and blood?

[Atreides]

need to just have a fetus tax and then all these problems will go away

[zoobernut]

Case-by-case basis but then again if you just, you know, 'accidently tripped' can you really refute it unless you get a polygraph...

I think we should hold women to a standard that they should take care of themselves while they carry a child but then again if they just have an abortion that would be murder depending on your point of view or from Utah's apparently.

The major factor in this is when do we determine that a child is a child and not a piece of flesh and blood?

We had a 50+ page thread debating this which resulted in many funny quotes and some stupid stuff being said look it up sometime and read it. Then it turned into another Plow/Neo orgy and everyone left.

What I remember from that thread is it doesn't seem like there is any way to definitively tell when a lump of flesh becomes a living human it is somewhat subjective. Also do you consider the potential for life the same thing as life? A lump of flesh that could turn into a life has the same rights as life?

[Benihana]

Or we can just consider it human life because what else is a fetus? It's not some mysterious blob force that decides to turn into human life. A fetus is always a human life. The question just remains when is it acceptable to take a human life and when is it not acceptable. The whole debate on whether a fetus is a baby or not is really a /facepalm and should stop being argued.

[AidenCarby]

Holy shit. I had no idea that miscarriage was -that- common.

I thought about that too, but yea this is stupid, imo bomb Utah.

[Rhyis.]

Get these women in jail pronto.

[Syntex]

We had a 50+ page thread debating this which resulted in many funny quotes and some stupid stuff being said look it up sometime and read it. Then it turned into another Plow/Neo orgy and everyone left.

What I remember from that thread is it doesn't seem like there is any way to definitively tell when a lump of flesh becomes a living human it is somewhat subjective. Also do you consider the potential for life the same thing as life? A lump of flesh that could turn into a life has the same rights as life?

I will spare myself the agony and take your word for it.

Regarding the bolded part I would say at conception but take any woman who will argue differently and I am at a disadvantage being a guy when they pull the "its not your body" card and then could go on to justify it by the circumstances i.e. a rape or incest ect.

I would say the potential for life =/= life in my eyes but I am sure others will disagree and even if they made a law we would have every guy from the age of 12 in prison for life for throwing away all the semen and all the women for not getting knocked up at 12 and wasting eggs, it just becomes stupid at that point.

[archibaldcrane]

Or we can just consider it human life because what else is a fetus? It's not some mysterious blob force that decides to turn into human life. A fetus is always a human life. The question just remains when is it acceptable to take a human life and when is it not acceptable. The whole debate on whether a fetus is a baby or not is really a /facepalm and should stop being argued.

Wow, so much truth here, and in your first post as well. I like the cut of your jib Benihana, it's like I wrote this myself.

[Cadsuane]

We had a 50+ page thread debating this which resulted in many funny quotes and some stupid stuff being said look it up sometime and read it. Then it turned into another Plow/Neo orgy and everyone left.

link?