Miscarriage: Murder!

[Rhinox]

Life begins at conception

Opinion

[zoobernut]

Life begins at conception. Many of those lives are ended within the first month, as they fail to implant and are flushed out in the menses. Many more successfully implant, but die to miscarriage in the next few months. Some die from intentional extraction (i.e. abortion), and some of these lives are born.

No matter which route it takes, they're all technically "human life". The argument is when said life is protected by the law, and which laws protect it at certain points in development.

I understand that people don't like to think of abortion as "ending a human life" because that sounds inhumane - but human lives are ended naturally as much if not moreso then they are successfully born regardless. if you don't want to end human lives, don't have sex ever - you're looking at a large percentage of conceived human lives dying before they ever get a chance to be born.

Otherwise re-wrap your head around the reality that embryos, fetuses, and all the rest of the terms used to describe what occurs when a sperm successfully fertilizes an egg as "life", and then start to ask the real questions that need to be discussed.

I don't think the definition of life is as cut and dry as you think it is. Are prions alive? Are viruses alive? There is a lot of debate surrounding what constitutes life and what is just a random gathering of lipids and proteins that inexplicably are able to reproduce by some means.

[Uzor]

Okay so when does it actually become human life? I know my whole argument went over your head because I never talked about when it becomes a baby, and I mentioned abortion in passing. If you don't think a baby being being born and then killed shortly after because you don't want it could possibly be wrong, that's totally opinion and won't waste time arguing that.

Read my edit, didn't want to make a new double post.

[archibaldcrane]

You can't say "a HUMAN cell" in an argument about abortion. Humans have a lot of cells. That alone doesn't make it qualify as a human baby. What exactly makes it a human baby? Human cell is not one of them.

an organism that contains all the characteristics commonly argued to constitute life, homeostatis, the ability to reproduce, metabolism, adaptability, growth.

Most cells on their own do not have these characteristics. An embryo does. That's the distinction.

[zoobernut]

Most cells on their own do not have these characteristics. An embryo does. That's the distinction.

But a Zygote and a Blastocyst do not have any of those characteristics they are simply a group of cells that have been triggered to divide. Yet you said life starts at conception.

Edit: I mean those characteristics above an individual cell level. At the cell level all cells in our body have those characteristics.

[Rhinox]

lol life does not begin at conception.

[Benihana]

So your definition of when it's okay to take life is whether or not it affects other people. Does that mean its okay to murder a loner if no one cares about him and won't be missed?

[Uzor]

No, because, as I also mentioned, he's had experiences.

[Takedown3]

the wife and i had an abortion the first time she got preggo's

second one she kept because of the trauma the abo put her thru! i demand more research into making abortion pleasant

not even trollin niggas, imagine if i wouldnt have to bag it anymore

[Logain]

lol life does not begin at conception.

In fact, life ends at conception. Just ask your parents.

[archibaldcrane]

I don't think the definition of life is as cut and dry as you think it is. Are prions alive? Are viruses alive?

Reasonable people can have an intellectually honest disagreement about whether a virus is alive.

The same just plain and simple cannot be said for an embryo. Size or number of cells does not determine whether something is alive or not. There are millions of single-celled organisms that are alive.

If you want to argue that life begins at embryo status (after the first cellular division of a fertilized egg) that's an argument that can be had. Anything beyond that is veering well away from a meaningful definition.

[Correction]

preggos should get to drive in the carpool lane.

[Rhinox]

In fact, life ends at conception. Just ask your parents.

zing

[Benihana]

preggos should get to drive in the carpool lane.

lol at this. Anyway Uzor that is your opinion, and I have mine, but after conception the embryo or w/e you want to call it/proper terms are specifically human. You can debate whether its is meaningful life or not, but it is human life none the less.

[zoobernut]

Reasonable people can have an intellectually honest disagreement about whether a virus is alive.

The same just plain and simple cannot be said for an embryo. Size or number of cells does not determine whether something is alive or not. There are millions of single-celled organisms that are alive.

If you want to argue that life begins at embryo status (after the first cellular division of a fertilized egg) that's an argument that can be had. Anything beyond that is veering well away from a meaningful definition.

My entire argument throughout this entire thread so far has been surrounding the fact that Benihana has no idea what he was saying and never made a distinction between the different development stages and was referring to the entire process as a fetus which is false.

An embryo at its early stages is just a clump of cells that got the right chemical signal to start dividing. You can say they are cell life at that point with the potential to become human life but if you consider a clump of dividing cells human life then what is the difference between them and the rest of the cells in your body? (I mean more than just biologically, I know they contain DNA from 2 people and they are unlocked so they can be told to become any type of specialized cell)

[Cadsuane]

Hay, real distinction you morons are having trouble with is between life as a biological construct, and a human life as a legal entity upon which certain rights are bestowed as an individual. An embryo is definitely the former, ie. it behooves you all to agree with that staggeringly obvious fact and start discussing whether or not an embryo constitutes the latter.

[Skjie]

It's a good thing women are only fetus incubators and don't have any feelings, thoughts or emotions themselves, otherwise this would be so terrible.

[archibaldcrane]

You can say they are cell life at that point with the potential to become human life but if you consider a clump of dividing cells human life then what is the difference between them and the rest of the cells in your body?

Because that "clump of dividing cells" has characteristics that the rest of the cells in your body, on their own, do not share.

For example:

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

[Alleya]

Can't believe a super-admin-God like yourself is responding to that legendary troll.

Wonders never cease..

C'mon...

Why do you think I made a thread almost guaranteed to turn into an abortion debate within 10 posts?

[zoobernut]

Hay, real distinction you morons are having trouble with is between life as a biological construct, and a human life as a legal entity upon which certain rights are bestowed as an individual. An embryo is definitely the former, ie. it behooves you all to agree with that staggeringly obvious fact and start discussing whether or not an embryo constitutes the latter.

I think this argument is still what everyone is discussing. An egg and a sperm definitely become cell life at conception there is no argument from me on that point. I just wonder at what stage of development it becomes Human Life.