Miscarriage: Murder!

[archibaldcrane]

I think this argument is still what everyone is discussing. An egg and a sperm definitely become cell life at conception there is no argument from me on that point. I just wonder at what stage of development it becomes Human Life.

If it's not human life at conception, what species of life is it?

You can't be alive without a species.

Please respond with "well it's homo sapiens sapiens, but it's not HUMAN yet"

[Benihana]

You know honestly I don't really think anyone is disagreeing about anything, but I had fun. I was mainly saying that people shouldn't be omg what is that in her womb. Instead of asking if it's a child or not, it is a lot simpler and true to say it is human life because most people get caught up on the baby/child stuff. This allows for the possibility to have a debate on abortion. I was only talking about biology and was not giving it any rights. In short, semantics is fun and so are debates on the internet.

-edit well maybe i was wrong about everyone agreeing.

[zoobernut]

Because that "clump of dividing cells" has characteristics that the rest of the cells in your body, on their own, do not share.

For example:

Actually all cells have all those characteristics. The human body amazingly is like a fractal, as you go down in layers a lot of the same processes occur on a smaller level.

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

An individual skin cell for example can perform cell homeostasis, on its own, it has a semi-permeable membrane made of lipids that it uses to regulate chemical balance between it and the outside world so it doesn't die this includes regulating electrolytes as well as many other compounds and water. An individual skin cell also has a metabolism, it has mitochondria which help it convert chemicals brought by the blood into energy. ect. The whole thing is so stupid I don't want to bother going piece by piece, the point is that a zygote and a clump of cells from your body are very similar in the characteristics that you are trying to use to determine human life.

Lol seriously do you think that individual cells in your body don't respond to stimuli or have the ability to reproduce? You would be dead if they didn't.

If it's not human life at conception, what species of life is it?

You can't be alive without a species.

Please respond with "well it's homo sapiens sapiens, but it's not HUMAN yet"

Human life has more requirements than just being "human cells that are alive" A clump of human liver cells growing in a petri dish are alive and they are human cells but I don't consider them human life. They are living cells.

[archibaldcrane]

Lol seriously do you think that individual cells in your body don't respond to stimuli or have the ability to reproduce? You would be dead if they didn't.

Like I said, you have to be intellectually honest if you want to have this conversation.

Brb cutting off a piece of skin so I can watch it thrive.

[Benihana]

Yes, all cells do what was stated, but none of those cells will go through the process of turning into a baby. So in short, the fact that is going through the process of becoming a baby/child gives it the distinction to be called human life unlike the rest of the cells in your body.

[zoobernut]

If a cell has the basic items necessary for life it can live without your body for a long time. Just like a human needs food and shelter a cell in a petri dish with nutrients and an environment that is conducive to it thriving will stay alive for a long time.

[kuronosan]

I'm not getting into this again but I'll leave a few opinions out there for everyone to think about:

1) Life does not begin at conception, life begins after an organism has differentiated and begins to live (in other words, after the embryo becomes a fetus).

2) Consequently, this would mean that once any human organism develops to the fetal stage, it is indeed alive.

3) The entire premise of considering killing anything short of a developed fetus homicide is fucking retarded. You must consider ejaculation genocide since you're killing off billions of half-human cells.

4) All fetuses and embryos start off as stem cells which have to differentiate after receiving chemical signals. Until this happens and the embryo develops, it is nothing more than a ball of cells. So no, filling a hole with water doesn't automatically make it a swimming pool.

5) Lastly:

Because that "clump of dividing cells" has characteristics that the rest of the cells in your body, on their own, do not share.

All cells have exactly the same DNA (with the exception of gametes, which undergo meiosis) print and come from the exact same precursor. The only difference between your cardiac cell, for example, and an osteocyte, is a gene that tells the DNA which one it is.

That is why conditions exist where people actually die because bones start growing where their muscles are or hair grows where muscle should be. The genetic code is so fragile that if it mutates so much as one codon the entire building comes crashing the fuck down.

Until the organism stops dividing to develop and starts dividing to grow, it is not alive. You don't get any more scientific than that.

Yes, all cells do what was stated, but none of those cells will go through the process of turning into a baby. So in short, the fact that is going through the process of becoming a baby/child gives it the distinction to be called human life unlike the rest of the cells in your body.

The fact that you have several subsets of genes that tell you what you are is what makes a human "human". I could call food that I just digested shit but until it comes out of my ass it's just digested food. Go take your semantics elsewhere.

Like I said, you have to be intellectually honest if you want to have this conversation.

Brb cutting off a piece of skin so I can watch it thrive.

Clearly you've never heard of hepatocytes, which do just that. Also, plenty of labs do what are called cell cultures, where they can culture human cells. You do know that all a cell needs to thrive is oxygen, water, and nutrients, right? No? I didn't think so.

[Rhinox]

Like I said, you have to be intellectually honest if you want to have this conversation.

Brb cutting off a piece of skin so I can watch it thrive.

wait are you suggesting Liver cells aren't alive and reproducing?

[archibaldcrane]

wait are you suggesting Liver cells aren't alive and reproducing?

wait are you suggesting that embroys aren't alive?

[archibaldcrane]

I will respond to nonsense with nonsense, I am not above stooping to your level.

[Rhinox]

Intellectually honest to have this conversation yadda yadda

[zoobernut]

I will respond to nonsense with nonsense, I am not above stooping to your level.

Wait if both halves of an argument think they are both stooping to each others level then is everyone just crawling around on the floor?

I mean you are the one who started your post with personal attacks. I think that set your starting level pretty low.

[Rhinox]

I will respond to nonsense with nonsense, I am not above stooping to your level.

You're being schooled and I'm just sitting back and enjoying the show. carry on

[archibaldcrane]

I love how you're all trying to throw my definitions back in my face.

You're doing a terrible job.

Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

[Rhinox]

I love how you're all trying to throw my definitions back in my face.

You're doing a terrible job.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/biobasis/bio_2.htm

[Rhinox]

its like the google fight we had over the word faggot you cherry pick definitions to suit your argument

[archibaldcrane]

its like the google fight we had over the word faggot you cherry pick definitions to suit your argument

Like this, and that, the only way you can be more wrong is to find a 3rd thing to disagree with me about.

[Rhinox]

Like this, and that, the only way you can be more wrong is to find a 3rd thing to disagree with me about.

But..but.. I'm not wrong

[zoobernut]

Archi you are approaching this from a biological standpoint. I think that is your problem. If you want to argue that a zygote is human life then argue it from a philosophical point of view. Then at least you will have some basis to work from.

[archibaldcrane]

http://anthro.palomar.edu/biobasis/bio_2.htm

Great article. As you can see, the cellular division described via mitosis and meiosis does not result in the creation of new organisms. However, in the part labeled "conception" you will find that a completely new organism develops from the process.

I'm glad you've come around.