Class details, Beta info & Battle System Details! (Famitsu&Dengeki 3/25 issue)

[Nishida]

Totally hoping you can make more than one char with ease unlike FFXI..Thaumaturge + Conjurer + Maurader..do want..@_@

[Destinye]

Reward people for doing thefight with less, don't reward them for bringing useless job.

Or we can not turn this into FFXI where people just DECIDE which jobs are "useless" and exclude them because they aren't x,y,z job >.>

[Odin'sLaw]

OK, Dengeki magazine came out today with a surprising amount of extra details.

Dengeki Class and Beta Q&A

They go over some details on the alpha/beta testing and general gameplay stuff regarding classes and battles. Like Famitsu, they also went class-by-class and got developer comments on each one.

You Sir really are a god in mortal gaze

[Kaylia]

Or we can not turn this into FFXI where people just DECIDE which jobs are "useless" and exclude them because they aren't x,y,z job >.>

They don't "decide", they parse,they wipe, and eventually reach the conclusion that it's much easier with X job than Y jobs. Why would you bring melee to ouryu fight? Is it elitism?

SE said that bringing a miner in a fight will increase the overall difficulty in exchange for better loot....how are you supposed to not discriminate, when when they are designed to be less useful.

A: Yes, that's right. It will add to the treasure pool, and we are still discussing this, but we want to make it so more Miners increases the benefits. However, the trade-off is that battles will be more difficult.

Unless this mean the monsters literally become stronger once TH is applied, the logic here is that you should be rewarded for carrying a worthless classes in a fight...but that's retarded

[Hyan]

They don't "decide", they parse,they wipe, and eventually reach the conclusion that it's much easier with X job than Y jobs. Why would you bring melee to ouryu fight? Is it elitism?

0,005% of players do this, and the rest just follow like sheep and apply the conclusion to every situation without knowing anything but "in X situation, Y job is better.. so I'll always invite the Y job, because it's the best in every situation".

Sam is best DD for birds... so ignorant player X invites a sam for every party he makes from lvl10 to 75. Even though some other jobs are much better or at least equal.

[Darte]

Unless this mean the monsters literally become stronger once TH is applied, the logic here is that you should be rewarded for carrying a worthless classes in a fight...but that's retarded

I think they mean by adding more miners to your party, you sacrifice the ability to have say a conjurer or marauder that would make the fight more easier since you have more support/magic/dd output in order to gain more TH

[GRT]

i assume there won't be a stream?

[Kaylia]

0,005% of players do this, and the rest just follow like sheep and apply the conclusion to every situation without knowing anything but "in X situation, Y job is better.. so I'll always invite the Y job, because it's the best in every situation".

Sam is best DD for birds... so ignorant player X invites a sam for every party he makes from lvl10 to 75. Even though some other jobs are much better or at least equal.

I'm not talking about decimal parsing, I'm talking about bringing melee to ouryu, about giving bst a purpose in most alliance fight...etc

People will always be biased to a certain extent, and there will be fad, but certain thing are simply not justified. Bringing a job for it's TH ability alone is ridiculous from a gameplay perspective.

I think they mean by adding more miners to your party, you sacrifice the ability to have say a conjurer or marauder that would make the fight more easier since you have more support/magic/dd output in order to gain more TH

That's how I understand it, and why I'm bitching. They are creating the same issue they did in FFXI with thief...a TH whore. I don't understand the logic behind this when everyone agree that TH is retarded.

[GRT]

hah, ya, TH is fuckin retarded

one of the major immediate attractions i got from, um, a certain other MMO, was that thf is actually fuckin fun to play instead of just waiting to get the last hit

[Rocl]

I mean, the way I read it as, a Miner won't be a particularly good DD or debuff or whatever it ends up being, but it'll still be able to function as one while giving the Treasure Hunter bonus. I also would hope this wouldn't be the only benefit for bringing a Miner, maybe doing a dungeon/raid/dynamis/whatever you want to call it is the only place you can get the new Khroma ore, to make the new awesome armor, but only Miners can see the spots. So, the spot isn't wasted entirely, I mean you might not bring a Miner your first dry run through the raid/dungeon/dynamis thingy but you might have incentive to do so later, yknow?

And in a way, isn't protecting a weak member like a Miner from death in order to ensure good drops more challenging than slaying the dragon with a full buff party? I mean that's just an idea of course, but still I think -1 real DD + 1 TH is still -1 real DD. They still are rewarding players for doing it with less. They are doing the fight with less if the job is useless.

I mean it's still really really early. What they're thinking about doing for alpha may not make it into retail.

[Elmer the Pointy]

Just in regards to Miner, the difficulty increasing just means that having a Miner, who cannot wear heavy armor or wield powerful weapons, cannot contribute as much to the fight as a battle-ready class. The tradeoff, as they mentioned, was getting more treasure.

[Hyan]

I'm not talking about decimal parsing, I'm talking about bringing melee to ouryu, about giving bst a purpose in most alliance fight...etc

People will always be biased to a certain extent, and there will be fad, but certain thing are simply not justified. Bringing a job for it's TH ability alone is ridiculous from a gameplay perspective.

Still, Destinye wasn't really that wrong either. People decide which job is useful based on the parses of 0,005% of people and apply them for every situation.

Certain things aren't justified, but a lot of job discrimination in XI was based on faulty stereotypes and not parses.

That's how I understand it, and why I'm bitching. They are creating the same issue they did in FFXI with thief...a TH whore. I don't understand the logic behind this when everyone agree that TH is retarded.

But when the class isn't designed to be used in battle, like Thief was, it's not that big of a problem imo. Miner, above all, is a class that does not excel in combat, but when he needs to fight for one reason or another, there is an incentive to invite one. Thief was a combat class most of all, so inviting it for only TH was a problem, since it's main purpose of being a DD is ignored.

Miner is no TH whore even though it's main purpose IN FIGHT might be the one that give players better loot. The main aspect of the class is still out-of-combat, and you can bet it will excel in what it does.

[Odin'sLaw]

Just in regards to Miner, the difficulty increasing just means that having a Miner, who cannot wear heavy armor or wield powerful weapons, cannot contribute as much to the fight as a battle-ready class. The tradeoff, as they mentioned, was getting more treasure.

i presumed more along the lines of someone who was pretty crappy at fighting but when you fight gold based monsters (i'm presuming more ore based or metal based) they'll be able to debuff it better then a Con or thur will the trade off for damage will be th hoping this th is actully noticeable

[GRT]

the problem with TH is that it is so fuckin random, there is really no way to know just how effective it is, and it's low "proc" means it's useless most of the time and nothing is contributed by the thf

whereas if it's a static increase in some shape or form, then that would be ok; for example: if you get 50% more gold/gil/money from enemies killed by having a Miner in the party, then the Miner's presence would be entirely justified

[Destinye]

That's how I understand it, and why I'm bitching. They are creating the same issue they did in FFXI with thief...a TH whore. I don't understand the logic behind this when everyone agree that TH is retarded.

Unless my RPG jobology is poor Miners aren't thieves nor assassins.

People "agree that TH is retarded" which you can view it as such yet I'm still seeing thieves in Dynamis and various other events which means they can clearly have other uses? Or am I right to believe people still care for TH in terms of FFXI.

They aren't creating any issue aside how people who will instantly view it as worthless and put it to that "worthless role"..so if people only view Miner as a "TH" they'll stick to that mentality and start excluding them because it will cause fights to go longer than zerging it.

Just in regards to Miner, the difficulty increasing just means that having a Miner, who cannot wear heavy armor or wield powerful weapons, cannot contribute as much to the fight as a battle-ready class. The tradeoff, as they mentioned, was getting more treasure.

That's exactly what I figured, people just become way too jaded by FFXI and trying to bring those practices into FFXIV >.>

[Hyan]

If people view a combat DD job as a TH whore and not a DD -in combat- then that is retarded.

But if people view a Miner job as a TH whore in combat then I don't think that's retarded. That only gives an incentive to invite the Miner, but does not mean that the Miner's main use is inferior to being a TH whore. Combat is not the main purpose of Miner.

[Odin'sLaw]

If people view a combat DD job as a TH whore and not a DD -in combat- then that is retarded.

But if people view a Miner job as a TH whore in combat then I don't think that's retarded. That only gives an incentive to invite the Miner, but does not mean that the Miner's main use is inferior to being a TH whore. Combat is not the main purpose of Miner.

only two reason i see someone inviting a miner

#1 i want more stuffs please
#2 your a blacksmith and want the ore he is mining

i'm looking forward to all walks of life on 14 but miner seems a little wiffy in terms of sounding

[GRT]

that's so not fair too, where's my leathercrafter and skinner? or alchemist and herbalist??


=P

[Kaylia]

I mean, the way I read it as, a Miner won't be a particularly good DD or debuff or whatever it ends up being, but it'll still be able to function as one while giving the Treasure Hunter bonus. I also would hope this wouldn't be the only benefit for bringing a Miner, maybe doing a dungeon/raid/dynamis/whatever you want to call it is the only place you can get the new Khroma ore, to make the new awesome armor, but only Miners can see the spots. So, the spot isn't wasted entirely, I mean you might not bring a Miner your first dry run through the raid/dungeon/dynamis thingy but you might have incentive to do so later, yknow?

And in a way, isn't protecting a weak member like a Miner from death in order to ensure good drops more challenging than slaying the dragon with a full buff party? I mean that's just an idea of course, but still I think -1 real DD + 1 TH is still -1 real DD. They still are rewarding players for doing it with less. They are doing the fight with less if the job is useless.

I mean it's still really really early. What they're thinking about doing for alpha may not make it into retail.

There is always a way to make it fun for everyone, but if the system is remotely unbalanced like it was in FFXI, it's just going to be an additional hassle when you form your party. It's already a pain at time to fill important roles, I don't want to have even more limitation. Artificial role that add nothing to the fight are stupid.


That said, with the ability to change your class at any time, maybe it won't be too bad. You could sacrifice one dps when you reach the boss and use miner instead. I'm fine with this. However, if it's like salvage where I will spend 2h looking for a thief because he couldn't show up...I will club a cute baby seal.

But when the class isn't designed to be used in battle, like Thief was, it's not that big of a problem imo. Miner, above all, is a class that does not excel in combat, but when he needs to fight for one reason or another, there is an incentive to invite one. Thief was a combat class most of all, so inviting it for only TH was a problem, since it's main purpose of being a DD is ignored.

In theory, it's just a bonus. Practically, when it involves farming something for many months, you will want every little drop rate boost you can get.

If the miner is asked to stay on the backline, or outside alliance, it won't be better, even if he is meant to be week.

[Kaylia]

Unless my RPG jobology is poor Miners aren't thieves nor assassins.

People "agree that TH is retarded" which you can view it as such yet I'm still seeing thieves in Dynamis and various other events which means they can clearly have other uses? Or am I right to believe people still care for TH in terms of FFXI.

They aren't creating any issue aside how people who will instantly view it as worthless and put it to that "worthless role"..so if people only view Miner as a "TH" they'll stick to that mentality and start excluding them because it will cause fights to go longer than zerging it.



That's exactly what I figured, people just become way too jaded by FFXI and trying to bring those practices into FFXIV >.>

Where in my post did I imply they had no other use?

They can be useful in battle (especially now with feint), but it doesn't change the fact that you will -want- a thief for TH before its fighting skills. Why should I have to bring a thief in salvage over a drk, drg, war or w/e? It would be less trouble this way.

It's even more ridiculous when you had to bring thief to a sea manaburn to increase the change to get a cape or w/e...I don't this scenario to be repeated again.