What's Better?

[pchan]

soulsaber pdt -5% vit 4 + genbu's shield VS terra staff, on RDM.

[Byrthnoth]

soulsaber pdt -5% vit 4 + genbu's shield VS terra staff, on RDM.

Easy answer is, this depends on whether or not you have D.ring.

D.ring, Soulsaber, DS Set +1, Jelly Ring, Genbu's Shield, Umbra, Collosus Earring = -50% PDT, so if Shield is doing anything at all for you and your only goal is to reduce damage taken, it is better than a pure -50%.

Real answer is more complicated. Genbu's Shield should have ~-36% physical damage taken adjustment whenever it procs, which is frequently.

A more typical set would be:
DS Harness/Feet +1, Goliard Pants, Jelly Ring, Umbra Cape, (Genboob's shield, Soulsaber vs. Terra's)

So you're looking at:
35/41% PDT with shield vs. 40/46% PDT

Assuming you're fighting something that always hits you for 200 damage, and using the daytime stats:
200*(1-.35)*(1 - Proc Rate * .36) = 200*(1-.40)

130*(1-Proc Rate*.36)=120
Proc Rate > 21% to make it worthwhile. (23.5% at night)


Terra's over Shield: Lower chances of getting one-shotted by a physical TP move.
Shield over Terra's: Potential to reduce shield blocks to 0 damage taken (Phalanx) and reduce your interruption rate.

To really make this useful, you'd have to know the lower cap on buckler proc rate.

[Arximiro]

Ulthalam's or Omicron ring for TP on Nin? Not really sure how Fstr works.


Inb4 change to War

[Cyprias]

Ulthalam's or Omicron ring for TP on Nin? Not really sure how Fstr works.


Inb4 change to War

rajas/toreador

[pchan]

Proc Rate > 21% to make it worthwhile. (23.5% at night)

Eyeballing says it's greater than 20%, this would need some tests. Also you're forgetting 10 defense (and 10 eva), which is far from negligeable unless you /blu.

edit : it's 24 defense even.

[noodles355]

I aggree with you except too points:

THF melee/ws split is more like 40% melee 40% ws 20% SA and TA. acc, store tp or haste dont contribute to SA and TA damage. This lowers your estimates abit ( idk if you counted TA and SA as we or melee dmg?)

2 acc is nothing, eat sushi to slove the problem. even a average non merited thf will be able to get above 400 accuracy with bravo and sushi. which means those 2 acc rarely matter.

Good points on the 40/40/20 split
I hadn't concidered SA/TA. At this point it becomes slightly more complicated to work out. Enkidu would be used for SA anyway as they're one of the strongest leg options, however 19 attacks @4.7 and 2 attacks at 4.9 is only 99.1TP, so they save you an attack if you SA. Even if you get two TA procs on your SA (very rare) it's still 99l.9TP. So if you SA once in your climb, Enkidu's has the same effect.
For TA, you (or rather, I) will have 4.7TP/hit. No Rajas or other STP, but also no DW Mirke (It keeps suppa though), This again means if no change to it's STP worth if you TA once (even if that TA triples twice)

However, going by your better 40/40/20 split, the boost from Enkidu's will be 4%, not 4.8% which puts them equal to Bravos when uncapped acc, with 2haste and march.

But then Bravo's also will then only add to 80% of your total damage, not 100%, putting their overall boost at 3.2% or 3.63% (depending on mirke/anwig or turban/rapp).

At this point, Enkidu's still looks to win. Unless, again, you're capped acc, at which point Enkidu is 3.2% vs 3.2/3.6%s.

Do you think that's accurate?

(Also on the acc=use sushi thing, I've found myself at 90% ish on Pizza+1, as Thf doesn't have a strong WS split, nor uses YGK, I wouldn't give up Pizza's Att for that last bit of acc).
Edit: Also, this last point is why Mithkabobs +Mirke/Anwig are better than Crab sushi +Turban/Rapp on birds (If you're other gear is decent ofc)

[Bikpik]

Couple of Cor questions:

What pants for TP if you don't have Skadi, or +haste ASA, using m.kris or joytoy?

Does Brutal really hurt TP gain for m.kris and Joytoy? If so, what earrings would be best to wear? Other than Suppa(with joytoy).

[Dooom]

Oily trousers are pretty nice AHable pants.

edit - also, I'm implying from the question that you lack Skadi, otherwise those would be the obvious choice.

[Jem]

Briefly discussed it on the LS forum but didn't really come to a conclusion.

Apocalypse
Rose Strap
White Tathlum
Champion's Galea (STP +4, Acc +10, Attack +5)
Chivalrous Chain
Brutal Earring
Abyssal Earring
Aurum Cuirass
Dusk Gloves +1
Toreador's Ring
Rajas Ring
Cuchulain's Mantle
Speed Belt
Blitzer Poleyn (Haste +3%, Acc +7)
Homam Gambieras

With Carbonara that 5 hits SAM sub I think. Obviously shit is situational but generally speaking does that beat standard 6 hit Apoc builds? It's roughly 420 total Acc I think on a Hume with Hasso up. Haven't given it too much thought but would probably do Abyssal > Atilla's and Chiv Chain > Gorget for WS'ing in the stp places.


Also, slightly related. It looks absolutely horrendous.

[Raz]

Couple of Cor questions:

What pants for TP if you don't have Skadi, or +haste ASA, using m.kris or joytoy?

Does Brutal really hurt TP gain for m.kris and Joytoy? If so, what earrings would be best to wear? Other than Suppa(with joytoy).

Barbarossa's Zerehs are nice for Tp.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ssasZerehs.png

[mdkuser]

Briefly discussed it on the LS forum but didn't really come to a conclusion.

Apocalypse
Rose Strap
White Tathlum
Champion's Galea (STP +4, Acc +10, Attack +5)
Chivalrous Chain
Brutal Earring
Abyssal Earring
Aurum Cuirass
Dusk Gloves +1
Toreador's Ring
Rajas Ring
Cuchulain's Mantle
Speed Belt
Blitzer Poleyn (Haste +3%, Acc +7)
Homam Gambieras

With Carbonara that 5 hits SAM sub I think. Obviously shit is situational but generally speaking does that beat standard 6 hit Apoc builds? It's roughly 420 total Acc I think on a Hume with Hasso up. Haven't given it too much thought but would probably do Abyssal > Atilla's and Chiv Chain > Gorget for WS'ing in the stp places.

Also, slightly related. It looks absolutely horrendous.

it most likely requires specific WS store TP-build as well, this is to take into consideration ( at least if you use catastrophe).

[Jem]

Yeah it does, needs +44 I think. Already taken into account which is why I mentioned the Abyssal > Atilla's and Chiv Chain > Gorget swap for when WS'ing to ensure I could still use a WS Gorget.

[Thorny]

6hit to 5hit is 20% ws frequency before factoring in any acc loss/meditate gain, carb is a decent attack loss, but off the top of my head i'd say it's a very good idea

if nobody full maths it by the time i get home i will

[Nightfyre]

Couple of Cor questions:

What pants for TP if you don't have Skadi, or +haste ASA, using m.kris or joytoy?

Does Brutal really hurt TP gain for m.kris and Joytoy? If so, what earrings would be best to wear? Other than Suppa(with joytoy).

I think Thorny showed it's a poor choice when using an attacks 2-3 times weapon, but I'd have to find the post again. For Joyeuse, Hollow or ACP equivalent is better anytime you can make full use of the accuracy (hitrate <= 93% with Brutal).

[Raen Ryong]

It'll be very hard for anything to beat 6hit to 5hit especially if you are still capped accuracy with the 5hit.

[Jem]

Well I've just done some very rough maths and it came out rather disappointing tbh. The 6 hit beat the 5 hit largely down to the huge amounts of attack you drop to 5 hit and maintain decent accuracy. (Dropping like 11% attack, 4 fSTR tiers, 4% DA and ~4-5% acc). Had the 5 hit ~4-5k damage behind the 6 hit over the course of 100 swings in raw DoT which it would then have to make up for in like 4 WS'es in gimper gear.

But there is the possibility that I mathed it incredibly badly or overlooked something so would still appreciate it if someone could still give it a quick look over with their maths.

[Byrthnoth]

Keeping capped Acc and Haste with a 5-hit makes it pretty attractive. If it lets you use Guillotine between your Catastrophes I'd say that it's definitely worth it.

If it doesn't . . . well, you're giving up a lot of attack (E.body, J-torque, Ares Mask?, Cerb +1, Bomb Core/Bomblet, Meat ~80-100 Atk pre-Chaos?) and the damage you do as an Apoc DRK comes more from your DoT than Cata spam.

[Jem]

Actually that's something I definitely overlooked. Being able to Guillotine more often would not only increase WS average damage but would let you drop some stp as well. Even Guillo'ing in optimum gear would mean you could drop 3 STP on next TP phase (Tath > Bomblet, Chiv > Justice).

[azagarth]

just a suggestion. Tor ring -> ecphoria, then you can drop chiv in tp and used ancient T for a 4 acc gain roughly. Also augmenting an attillas with some good boost to it doesnt seem to hard either.

I don't really see the point in a true 5hit on drk though. For xp you will be blood tanking anyhow (just due to dot), thus probably getting 6tp from being hit every time you ws anyhow. could toss a few more stp in and just assume you will get 4-6tp extra per ws to work with and could drop some stp options for some attack ones? I know people are addicted to math posts and hypotheticals, but its easy to parse and look at your ws frequency and normal eyeballing how often you fall short of being able to ws at 5hit speed. Every apoc drk i pty with normally tanks until someone ws's so its pretty safe to assume you will get hit lol... unless your a seigan rider on drk?

I am not an apc drk, but I though you needed only 14% haste in tp set with aftermath up? If that was the case could open up a lot more choices too ya?

[Byrthnoth]

Well, you have 20 seconds to start 8 attack rounds and get 200TP. Toss in 1 seconds x2 for the ever-elusive "Weaponskill delay" and another 2 seconds for random JA usage and you'd be looking at ~2 seconds per attack round. That's pretty much at the Haste cap with Apoc (Hasso + Haste Samba or Desperate Blows).

You should just try it and see if it works if you already have all the gear. Until we get some quantification on what these animation delays are for various JAs/WSs/etc I can't really calculate anything that'll tell you if it works.