What's Better?

[Kirschy]

The biggest problem /w that Apoc 5-hit build is that it relies on AM being up. Unfortunately most situations aren't full-timing one mob, and there's many things that can bring an aftermath down. In events like Einherjar or Dynamis your engage between mobs is limited by an assister. In most situations, just having someone kill a mob /w their WS before you get yours off can make your AM wear off before next mob. Even in good merit situations, like coli, it's fairly common to have AM wearing off when you need to run to a mob. Add in endgame events like Salvage, Limbus, Dynamis, etc.. where there's a wait/travel time between mobs. With that setup, you'd either have to have TP in 16% haste, or TP in higher haste while going back to a 6-hit until WS/AM is back on. Depending on how often the AM fell, it would lower the gains from a 5-hit build.

(I've read about some possible 5-hit builds that don't require AM, I don't know how they work in practice though.)

[Jem]

The biggest problem /w that Apoc 5-hit build is that it relies on AM being up. Unfortunately most situations aren't full-timing one mob, and there's many things that can bring an aftermath down. In events like Einherjar or Dynamis your engage between mobs is limited by an assister. In most situations, just having someone kill a mob /w their WS before you get yours off can make your AM wear off before next mob. Even in good merit situations, like coli, it's fairly common to have AM wearing off when you need to run to a mob. Add in endgame events like Salvage, Limbus, Dynamis, etc.. where there's a wait/travel time between mobs. With that setup, you'd either have to have TP in 16% haste, or TP in higher haste while going back to a 6-hit until WS/AM is back on. Depending on how often the AM fell, it would lower the gains from a 5-hit build.

(I've read about some possible 5-hit builds that don't require AM, I don't know how they work in practice though.)

Yeah this was a worry I had too. To maintain 5 hit and full haste you would have to swap Chiv Chain for Almah Torque, Abyssal Earring for Atilla's Earring and Cuch Mantle for Fourth Mantle. So you'd be looking to save Absorb Acc/Diabolic Eye for those situations since your acc would be abyssmal. But using DE/casting absorb acc is also losing swinging time.

Well, you have 20 seconds to start 8 attack rounds and get 200TP. Toss in 1 seconds x2 for the ever-elusive "Weaponskill delay" and another 2 seconds for random JA usage and you'd be looking at ~2 seconds per attack round. That's pretty much at the Haste cap with Apoc (Hasso + Haste Samba or Desperate Blows).

You should just try it and see if it works if you already have all the gear. Until we get some quantification on what these animation delays are for various JAs/WSs/etc I can't really calculate anything that'll tell you if it works.

Unfortunately I don't have the gear available to me atm. I'd have to campaign a Rose Strap (A pain but easy enough since I'm high enough rank and Sandy), redo ASA and MKD (Again a pain but easy enough) and get an Aurum Cuirass (Have 2 Tyger pops atm anyway but not sure when we're doing ZNM as an LS). I'd also have to find a Speed Belt since atm I'm a big fat gimp without one (Can't find one at a reasonable price rather than lacking gil). So I'm a long way off testing really.

If I get hold of that gear I'll test it. Was hoping (Foolishly) that it was a clear cut it's terrible or it's better so I didn't get all the gear together for nothing.

At most events I don't get a DNC though so for me personally it's probably going to be lacking.

just a suggestion. Tor ring -> ecphoria, then you can drop chiv in tp and used ancient T for a 4 acc gain roughly. Also augmenting an attillas with some good boost to it doesnt seem to hard either.

I don't really see the point in a true 5hit on drk though. For xp you will be blood tanking anyhow (just due to dot), thus probably getting 6tp from being hit every time you ws anyhow. could toss a few more stp in and just assume you will get 4-6tp extra per ws to work with and could drop some stp options for some attack ones? I know people are addicted to math posts and hypotheticals, but its easy to parse and look at your ws frequency and normal eyeballing how often you fall short of being able to ws at 5hit speed. Every apoc drk i pty with normally tanks until someone ws's so its pretty safe to assume you will get hit lol... unless your a seigan rider on drk?

I am not an apc drk, but I though you needed only 14% haste in tp set with aftermath up? If that was the case could open up a lot more choices too ya?

Good call on the A Torque. Did think about it when looking at gear but for whatever reason didn't include it.

Never heard anyone quote 14% before. I always TP'ed in 16% to give me 26% with AM up (i.e. Gear cap).

I do fulltime Hasso where possible so yeah, facetanking would also help providing it was feasible to do so. On the basis of getting 4tp per cycle from eating hits you're down to 34 stp needed on Guillo cycles and 39 on non Guillo cycles.





Is it possible to get stp via augments?

[Byrthnoth]

Is it possible to get stp via augments?

I can't say for sure that they didn't add it with their "expanded augment selection" thing in the last update. However, I'm pretty sure that before the last update there had been no STP augments reported from FoV, expansion keys, or MMM.

[Meat]

The biggest problem /w that Apoc 5-hit build is that it relies on AM being up. Unfortunately most situations aren't full-timing one mob, and there's many things that can bring an aftermath down. In events like Einherjar or Dynamis your engage between mobs is limited by an assister. In most situations, just having someone kill a mob /w their WS before you get yours off can make your AM wear off before next mob. Even in good merit situations, like coli, it's fairly common to have AM wearing off when you need to run to a mob. Add in endgame events like Salvage, Limbus, Dynamis, etc.. where there's a wait/travel time between mobs. With that setup, you'd either have to have TP in 16% haste, or TP in higher haste while going back to a 6-hit until WS/AM is back on. Depending on how often the AM fell, it would lower the gains from a 5-hit build.

(I've read about some possible 5-hit builds that don't require AM, I don't know how they work in practice though.)

Why does't every apoc 5 hit begin with sam's roll

[Kirschy]

Why does't every apoc 5 hit begin with sam's roll

Even assuming SAM roll, I believe it's fairly rough to get 5-hit without giving up some nice slots. I know some people have said it works nicely, But I've been reluctant to change since it requires a lot of new pieces such as Aurum, Rose Strap, using sTP food, etc... To be honest, I don't realli see SAM roll much outside of Salvage/Ein, so I haven't put in the time to research how a viable 5-hit Apoc works, and what it requires. I've been thinking about trying it out sometime, as I'd like to mess around /w 5-hit Liberator setup too. I'd love to hear setups people have done, and their experience /w it.

[Sweettooth]

What's better for Blade: Jin? Usukane Hizayoroi or Hachiryu Haidate

Same question, what about Asuran Fists?

[Dooom]

Probably Hachiryu for both (unless you know the Dex on Usuakne will push your dDex to 50 on Jin), though both are really lacking in acc for Asuran.

[Byrthnoth]

With a SAM in the party and a good COR, you can rely on at least +26 from SAM's Roll. Starting with the typical /SAM 21STP, you already have an Apoc 5-hit.

Without SAM but still with a good COR, you're looking at +16 being your lower limit. That means you'd need to pick up 7 STP outside of Rajas/Brutal, which could be accomplished by using Aurum body.

I define a "Good COR" as one who doesn't settle for anything but the lucky roll or 7+. I'm not a COR, but I assume they can at least manipulate probability that well with their JAs.

[sruon]

What's better for Blade: Jin? Usukane Hizayoroi or Hachiryu Haidate

I'll take the bait, neither?

[Shinryuu]

I really don't like Samurai roll :/ could go to something better. Fighter's w/ WAR in party is nice, for ridiculous defensive stuff like JoL I've actually found a use for Rogue's roll, Corsair's is a given for exp-related stuff (inb4 campaign), and Chaos is always roll #1 anyway.

[azagarth]

hmm if after math is 10% then ya would need 16% lol... this noob apoc drk I did salvage with for awhile said 14% when i asked. This was year or so ago so i really have just taken that as is lol.... I am probably wrong though as I never really looked/cared to look into it.

[Sweettooth]

I'll take the bait, neither?

Byakko's - i forgot about those ... Those the best option generally?

[Dooom]

For Jin yes, Shura are slightly better for Asuran but I'm confident they will beat Usu or Hachiryu.

[ringthree]

What are good slots to get -enmity for RNG. I am sick of pulling hate all the time, and I am willing to give up marginal increases in damage for less hate.

[drwaffles]

What are good slots to get -enmity for RNG. I am sick of pulling hate all the time, and I am willing to give up marginal increases in damage for less hate.

Obviously Novia is a good option, and a lot of RNG AF/AF2 has some -enmity on it, you could try mixing some of that in if you're that serious about not pulling hate. Although honestly the main issue here is that your tank sucks; shitloads of -enmity is only going to prolong the time you remain hateless by a bit. Just sub NIN and show them how to tank.

[solkanar]

Re-posting this here since I put it in the wrong thread the first time >.<

For Cor quick draw earrings (since Novio is not an option atm):
Altdorf's/Wilhelm's or
Casandra's/Helenus's or
Drone/Moldivite ?

[Byrthnoth]

The middle option is the best balance of accuracy and damage for Quick draw if you don't have access to Novio. People debate whether MAcc affects Quick Draw, but imop it probably does so go with the middle set if you already have it. If you don't have it, the latter set works fine until you get it. The first set (AGI+8?) would be for highly resistant targets or Sleep/Dispel.

[noodles355]

Obviously Novia is a good option, and a lot of RNG AF/AF2 has some -enmity on it, you could try mixing some of that in if you're that serious about not pulling hate. Although honestly the main issue here is that your tank sucks; shitloads of -enmity is only going to prolong the time you remain hateless by a bit. Just sub NIN and show them how to tank.

AF has no -enmity on it. AF2 does but the only worthwhile bits are the legs/feet.

The Quadav SCNM healm is epic, and novia too.

If you want to sacrifice more damage, then you could look at Buccaneer's belt, Delta Earring, Trooper's Ring and Relic Hat.

You could also look at subbing /Drg for High Jump. This is a lot better than using /Nin.

[Davricle]

Just to double check, on MNK without full usu, should I fulltime Somen over W. Turban?

[Draylo]

Really think I am just gonna stick with Perdu scythe for my DRK instead of attempting the OAT scythe. I rarely play drk outside of zerg so I don't think it's worth the time investment. Sound like a valid choice or no? I guess it would depend on how much better the OAT is.. again I don't play drk outside of zerg much.