What's Better?

[chinis]

Alright, he said on hits under 200, Genbu is better, but over 200, Darksteel is better, because the VIT will give the mob DMG-4. He was also thinking of replacing some low PDT items with higher DEF items. Like some of the 1/2% ones with items that give 10+ DEF over them, like Genbu/DCap. I'm sure the PDT would still be better though, but that's what we're trying to figure out. I use full PDT though (Darksteel cap/legs/body, askar feet, those ice spikes gloves because I can't find any damn Heavy Gauntlets). Just seems to me like going full PDT is the best choice in any situation, but I don't know how to do all the math. This is what he told me though:
15 VIT roughly translates into -3.75 fSTR. Therefore assuming the mob has a pDIF from 1.0 to 4.0, thats a damage decrease of anywhere from 3.75 to 15.00 DMG per hit.

Darksteel Cap +1 has a PDT -2%, so on a 100 DMG hit thats a damage decrease of 2 DMG, 200 DMG hit decreases by 4, 400 DMG hit decreases by 8, and so forth.

Additionally, Genbu's Kabuto has an effective DEF+20 over Darksteel Cap +1 considering 2 VIT = 1 DEF.

Assumptions:
This all assumes that mob damage calculations work similar to current player tested models, that mob STR >> player VIT for ((STR - VIT) + 4) / 4, and that mob pDIF min/max limits are 1.0/4.0 (Found old tests pertaining to this). Although, not necessarily interested in this case solely. I'm wondering if there are any current tests that have been done that pertain to DEF caps, mob pDIFs and attack values in general.

[CDF]

People keep posting stuff about Soboro being the best, etc etc. I've made a spreadsheet that uses the following assumptions:
1) 30/50/20 starting distribution before Double Attack
2) Double Attack procs before and precludes Occasionally Attacks 1-3 times.
3) 95% Accuracy
4) 6-hit build
5) 17% Double Attack

Now, I can't figure out how to attach a spreadsheet anymore (I thought I used to be able to?), but the results are pretty much:
* 3 Rounds per WS pre-accuracy correction.
* 3.158 Rounds per WS post-accuracy correction.

Maybe not that big a deal, but I get 3.042 rounds per WS. I did a simulation too, making sure my calculated value wasn't off. Definitely correct that additional DA barely has an effect... assuming Soboro works as Ridill seems to do ("occasionally attacks 2-3 times" being conditional on whether DA occurs, or DA procs precluding OA1-3T)

[Yugl]

Alright, he said on hits under 200, Genbu is better, but over 200, Darksteel is better, because the VIT will give the mob DMG-4. He was also thinking of replacing some low PDT items with higher DEF items. Like some of the 1/2% ones with items that give 10+ DEF over them, like Genbu/DCap. I'm sure the PDT would still be better though, but that's what we're trying to figure out. I use full PDT though (Darksteel cap/legs/body, askar feet, those ice spikes gloves because I can't find any damn Heavy Gauntlets). Just seems to me like going full PDT is the best choice in any situation, but I don't know how to do all the math. This is what he told me though:
15 VIT roughly translates into -3.75 fSTR. Therefore assuming the mob has a pDIF from 1.0 to 4.0, thats a damage decrease of anywhere from 3.75 to 15.00 DMG per hit.

Exactly what formula is he using? If he's using the player melee damage formula, then he would need to explain how and where he got the monster's weapon's base DMG. The melee DMG works as follows:

(Base DMG)*(pDIF)

Base DMG = (Weapon base DMG + fSTR)
Weapon base DMG = The base DMG listed on your weapon
fSTR = (Your STR-Mob Vit+4/4); this value is capped at weapon rank + 8
Weapon rank = (Weapon base DMG/9)

In other words, you get this big mess:

(Weapon base DMG + [(Your STR-Mob VIT+4/4)])*(pDIF)

pDIF= A variant of cratio (Don't worry about this)
cratio = (Ratio-LVDIF*.05)
LVDIF = (Your LV-Mob LV)
Ratio = (Your ATT/Mob DEF)

This mess comes out to:

(Weapon base DMG + [(Your STR-Mob VIT+4/4)])*([Your ATT/Mob DEF]-[Your LV-Mob LV]*[.05])

The 4VIT's effect will vary depending on the other factors. Even if your assumptions are correct, it's unknown whether mobs have a weapon base or even weapon rank. These are important in determining whether mobs will be at capped fSTR to begin with (If so, it may be the case that Genbu's does nothing).

[Clerix]

What's better for BRD debuff:

Omega/Nereid or Omega/Angel's?

Obviously Nereidx2 for buff.

[mdkuser]

Maybe not that big a deal, but I get 3.042 rounds per WS. I did a simulation too, making sure my calculated value wasn't off. Definitely correct that additional DA barely has an effect... assuming Soboro works as Ridill seems to do ("occasionally attacks 2-3 times" being conditional on whether DA occurs, or DA procs precluding OA1-3T)

Ive got the same number as you with the theoretical formula and simulation ( 3 digits after 10 million attack rounds rounds, 5 minute long, even though my random generator is really bad). theoretical number is 3.042737532 and simulated rounds is 3.042221162

[Dathus]

Destroyers or Magian Trial weapons on a MNK that's JUST used for Salvage tanking?

[ringthree]

Exactly what formula is he using? If he's using the player melee damage formula, then he would need to explain how and where he got the monster's weapon's base DMG. The melee DMG works as follows:

(Base DMG)*(pDIF)

Base DMG = (Weapon base DMG + fSTR)
Weapon base DMG = The base DMG listed on your weapon
fSTR = (Your STR-Mob Vit+4/4); this value is capped at weapon rank + 8
Weapon rank = (Weapon base DMG/9)

In other words, you get this big mess:

(Weapon base DMG + [(Your STR-Mob VIT+4/4)])*(pDIF)

pDIF= A variant of cratio (Don't worry about this)
cratio = (Ratio-LVDIF*.05)
LVDIF = (Your LV-Mob LV)
Ratio = (Your ATT/Mob DEF)

This mess comes out to:

(Weapon base DMG + [(Your STR-Mob VIT+4/4)])*([Your ATT/Mob DEF]-[Your LV-Mob LV]*[.05])

The 4VIT's effect will vary depending on the other factors. Even if your assumptions are correct, it's unknown whether mobs have a weapon base or even weapon rank. These are important in determining whether mobs will be at capped fSTR to begin with (If so, it may be the case that Genbu's does nothing).

This is the real problem I have noticed about a lot of people that try to do calculations for player damage. I have no idea how they can find damage amounts without adding in mob stats. Mob stats can cause a great variation in the amount of damage done.

I think this is one of the reasons that a few people have started mistakenly claiming that Soboro is the best GKT on "anything". You can not know how good a weapon is if you do not try to model it against the stats of a mob. You would be unable to determine either the damage or the pDIF side of the equation.

[Raen Ryong]

Pdif is a constant multiplier provided neither weapon has STR or ATK on it, so that's a nonissue.

Base Damage comparisons are slightly less accurate because fSTR isn't shown accurately however, this is true.

[Argettio]

This is the real problem I have noticed about a lot of people that try to do calculations for player damage. I have no idea how they can find damage amounts without adding in mob stats. Mob stats can cause a great variation in the amount of damage done.

I think this is one of the reasons that a few people have started mistakenly claiming that Soboro is the best GKT on "anything". You can not know how good a weapon is if you do not try to model it against the stats of a mob. You would be unable to determine either the damage or the pDIF side of the equation.

While all true.

pDif is unrelated to the weapon (unless the weapon has some stat on it which directly changes your attack or changes what gear you up in other slots).

fSTR is also unrelated to the weapon (with the above caveat).

So you can build a relationship between the 2 weapons in question, and from that relationship probably build cases for when one is better than the other.

But your right, doing maths on a fixed point (Colibri) or estimated VIT and Defence figures is likely to lead to false generalisations.

[ringthree]

Pdif is a constant multiplier provided neither weapon has STR or ATK on it, so that's a nonissue.

That is absolutely incorrect. pDIF is a function of player Attack vs. mob Defense and also of level correction. So pDIF is very much tied to the stats of the mob you are fighting. And those functions can even change based on the value of your level corrected Attack/Defense ratio.

Base Damage comparisons are slightly less accurate because fSTR isn't shown accurately however, this is true.

I am not talking about the accuracy of fSTR estimations. The value of fSTR changes based not just on the value of a player's stats, but also on the VIT of the mob that you are fighting.

The calculations for weapon damage as very much based on the mob you are fighting. Any model for potential damage that doesn't account for mob stats is a poor one. I think this is one of the reasons some people have come to the mistaken conclusion that Soboro is the "best" GKT.

[Raen Ryong]

That is absolutely incorrect. pDIF is a function of player Attack vs. mob Defense and also of level correction. So pDIF is very much tied to the stats of the mob you are fighting. And those functions can even change based on the value of your level corrected Attack/Defense ratio.

Not for comparison's sake if the variables "Player Attack", "Monster Defence" and "Monster Level" are constant;

Comparing two weapons:

BD_1 * Pdif
BD_2 * Pdif

We can simply cancel Pdif. It's important if we want to say "this weapon will do x amount of damage in unit time" but not important if we want to say "weapon 1 will do y% more damage than weapon 2 in unit time" because provided neither weapon modifies pdif, it is a constant multiplier and hence can be cancelled out for the sake of comparison.

[ringthree]

While all true.

pDif is unrelated to the weapon (unless the weapon has some stat on it which directly changes your attack or changes what gear you up in other slots).

fSTR is also unrelated to the weapon (with the above caveat).

So you can build a relationship between the 2 weapons in question, and from that relationship probably build cases for when one is better than the other.

But your right, doing maths on a fixed point (Colibri) or estimated VIT and Defence figures is likely to lead to false generalisations.

pDIF is not related to the weapon, correct, but pDIF is a multiplier on a weapon damage. So as weapon damage changes the effect of pDIF is obviously changed. This is why low base damage weapons are generally not that great if they don't have some external damage bonus or you are using them for some other reason.

fSTR is not related to weapon damage, but base damage is weapon damage + fSTR, and base damage is what is multiplied by pDIF to get your final result.

As a mob gets stronger, there are "downward" forces on both damage (from a decreased fSTR) and pDIF (from a decreased cRatio [which incidentally has "downward" forces on both Ratio and level correction]). This means that a lower damage weapon will be more adversely effected by higher level mobs than a higher damage weapon.

This is why I questioned the initial assessment that Soboro was good against "anything". The relationships are not constant over all mobs. To suggest that it didn't matter what mob you were fighting means that there is a problem with the understanding of the damage formulas of the game.

[ringthree]

Not for comparison's sake if the variables "Player Attack", "Monster Defence" and "Monster Level" are constant;

Comparing two weapons:

BD_1 * Pdif
BD_2 * Pdif

We can simply cancel Pdif. It's important if we want to say "this weapon will do x amount of damage in unit time" but not important if we want to say "weapon 1 will do y% more damage than weapon 2 in unit time" because provided neither weapon modifies pdif, it is a constant multiplier and hence can be cancelled out for the sake of comparison.

Well, this is obviously the case if you only ever fight one mob in the game. The problem (and the reason that some people are falsely concluding that Soboro is the "best" GKT) is that people have been extrapolating from this point to make conclusions about other mobs with different stats.

You can not make a conclusion about the value of one weapon against a different mob without adjusting pDIF. See my above post as to why this is the case.

[Raen Ryong]

pDIF is not related to the weapon, correct, but pDIF is a multiplier on a weapon damage. So as weapon damage changes the effect of pDIF is obviously increased.

In absolute values it may seem that way, but in terms of percentage it is not. If a weapon is 20% stronger before pdif, it will be 20% stronger after pdif (notable exception: if one weapon has low enough pdif after factoring it in that it hits for 0 often: typically not a problem).

Using numerical examples,

Base Damage 100 weapon vs Base Damage 85 weapon

Base Damage 100 weapon is 15/85 = 17.6% stronger

factor in a pdif average of ~1.6, say

Base Damage 100 weapon => 160 damage
Base Damage 85 weapon => 136 damage

Base Damage 100 weapon is 24/136 = 17.6% stronger

Pdif effects all weapons equally provided they do not have Attack or STR on them!

[ringthree]

In absolute values it may seem that way, but in terms of percentage it is not. If a weapon is 20% stronger before pdif, it will be 20% stronger after pdif (notable exception: if one weapon has low enough pdif after factoring it in that it hits for 0 often: typically not a problem).

Using numerical examples,

Base Damage 100 weapon vs Base Damage 85 weapon

Base Damage 100 weapon is 15/85 = 17.6% stronger

factor in a pdif average of ~1.6, say

Base Damage 100 weapon => 160 damage
Base Damage 85 weapon => 136 damage

Base Damage 100 weapon is 24/136 = 17.6% stronger

Pdif effects all weapons equally provided they do not have Attack or STR on them!

Again, you are assuming that you are fighting the same mob. I am not saying that the calculations that you are doing are incorrect. It is almost tautological to say that a weapon that is 20% stronger than another weapon will be 20% stronger than that other weapon.

What I am saying is that a weapon that is 20% stronger against one mob, will not necessarily be 20% stronger against a different mob.

The problem is that while you can simplify the equation by removing pDIF when you are fighting the same exact mob, you can not simplify out pDIF when pDIF changes. And that is what you are doing in essence. By simplifying out pDIF you are implicitly adding the assumption that all mobs will then have the same level and defense for the rest of your calculations. So while your simplified equation is good for telling you which weapon is better if you were always fighting the same mob, it is of little to no in-game utility.

Let me correct what you said, and hopefully it will help to understand the problem a little better.

"Pdif effects all weapons equally provided they do not have Attack or STR on them, and provided that the mob you are fighting always has the same stats!"

I may be wrong. I am not a mathematician, but I think there is a problem with not factoring in the mob stats when trying to figure out the damage of a weapon.

[Shinryuu]

What? No. Mob defense doesn't matter for a weapon versus weapon comparison provided neither modifies pDIF (attack, crits). fSTR plays a very minor role either way, it shouldn't affect any outcome. The only thing I can think of is a weapon with an entire different WS/TP ratio (say, onehit vs. multihit weapon) where your WS greatly affects pDIF (Gekko).

[ringthree]

What? No. Mob defense doesn't matter for a weapon versus weapon comparison provided neither modifies pDIF (attack, crits). fSTR plays a very minor role either way, it shouldn't affect any outcome. The only thing I can think of is a weapon with an entire different WS/TP ratio (say, onehit vs. multihit weapon) where your WS greatly affects pDIF (Gekko).

Yeah, I have misidentified pDIF as the culprit. Though fSTR would still be a factor as you said. I was thinking of the equation as a whole, not doing a good job of identifying what would change as mobs change.

My point is still true in that you can not just straight compare weapons across mobs. I have been working on some calculations, I will finish them before I continue.

[mdkuser]

The problem is people doing maths making assumption on their ws/melee split and on their pdif/fstr; when they do that I know something is going to be wrong, there will be a contradiction at one point. See too many people starting math on monk assuming 30%ws dmg, which is only goign to be the case with destroyers and super high attack buffs), or people assuming 30% melee dmg for sam, which is only the case for hagun and on HNMs..etc...

Personally I calculate my ws/melee split given my pdif, fSTR and haste. mobs stats and player's stats are all included in pdif, fstr and haste ( and acc I guess).

[FailureMidgard]

The problem is people doing maths making assumption on their ws/melee split and on their pdif/fstr; when they do that I know something is going to be wrong, there will be a contradiction at one point. See too many people starting math on monk assuming 30%ws dmg, which is only goign to be the case with destroyers and super high attack buffs), or people assuming 30% melee dmg for sam, which is only the case for hagun and on HNMs..etc...

Personally I calculate my ws/melee split given my pdif, fSTR and haste. mobs stats and player's stats are all included in pdif, fstr and haste ( and acc I guess).

No, this is entirely incorrect, this is why I asked for a parse of your Pachipachio, and this is why a majority of the math done by you and Pchan on these forums is incorrect. All of your math assumes that one will weaponskill the second they hit 100TP every time. The only TP overflow you ever account for is the double attack probability distribution, which is incorrect. The fact of the matter is, in things like Pachi vs Hagun, any human error begins to favor Hagun, to the point that Pachi no longer wins when you put a human being behind the controls. Things like not WSing at 5%, or taking an extra swing in a high-haste situation as you move to get overwhelm, or just being distracted for a fraction of a second and swinging an extra time - these things do happen, even to the best players. Using your personal TP/WS(and ideally meditate WSes separate from TP'd WSes) split will give you what is actually best for you, as a human being in a real situation. Using what you use will actually not result in you optimizing your damage. This also accounts for missing overwhelms (if you miss them regularly, this will skew your TP/WS split, and also does influence it...if you have a large sample, you can assume that you will probably keep a similar ratio of missing overwhelm in the future).

It is much better to gather data from your personal play, then apply theoretical to it, than to use purely theoretical numbers from start to finish.

[ringthree]

No, this is entirely incorrect, this is why I asked for a parse of your Pachipachio, and this is why a majority of the math done by you and Pchan on these forums is incorrect. All of your math assumes that one will weaponskill the second they hit 100TP every time. The only TP overflow you ever account for is the double attack probability distribution, which is incorrect. The fact of the matter is, in things like Pachi vs Hagun, any human error begins to favor Hagun, to the point that Pachi no longer wins when you put a human being behind the controls. Things like not WSing at 5%, or taking an extra swing in a high-haste situation as you move to get overwhelm, or just being distracted for a fraction of a second and swinging an extra time - these things do happen, even to the best players. Using your personal TP/WS(and ideally meditate WSes separate from TP'd WSes) split will give you what is actually best for you, as a human being in a real situation. Using what you use will actually not result in you optimizing your damage. This also accounts for missing overwhelms (if you miss them regularly, this will skew your TP/WS split, and also does influence it...if you have a large sample, you can assume that you will probably keep a similar ratio of missing overwhelm in the future).

It is much better to gather data from your personal play, then apply theoretical to it, than to use purely theoretical numbers from start to finish.

I appreciate comments like this.