What's Better?

[Shinryuu]

A good way to work around the different WS/TP ratios for both weapons is to calculate the percentual increases of both Soboro and Hagun over a hypothetical 40/450 one-hit GKT. It's half as easy to just calculate or simulate a WS/TP ratio of one weapon.

[Dooom]

The start of events is a normal time, stuff like Einherjar where you can meditate up before entering; or if you have an extended period of not being engaged (waiting on a pull or something in dyna, died and waiting on weakness, etc). Also, human error. I dual box at almost everything I do, and if I have to focus on my dual box'd character for a while, I may return to my main on samurai and found I TP'd up to 200tp or so while my attention was elsewhere. These are the kinds of things you simply can't calculate for. Also, if you're the only melee or something and blms want a SC to MB off of?

edit - this is in reply to ringthree asking about Sekka, other people posted while I was typing.

[Thorny]

That said, and I am asking seriously here, can you think of a time when you would seriously use Sekkanoki with a Hagun (besides at the beginning of a fight when you have 300TP stored up)? Meditate would just mean that your next WS came faster, not that you would hold the TP to use it with Sekkanoki.

Med while looking for a VNM, it pops and you have 200+ tp, what do you do?

[Shinryuu]

You Blade bash every 5 minutes that's what

edit:
ksbggkbskgkbjn talking Sekka not that other S thing

[Thorny]

You Blade bash every 5 minutes that's what

Sekkanoki not Shikikoyo, nabcake

[Byrthnoth]

I would like to question the role of Sekkanoki. Meditate should definitely be included, but if you are always using a WS as soon as you cross the 100TP threshold, then you will never get a chance to use Sekkanoki.

Am I wrong in this assessment? It would seem counter-productive to hold 200TP just to use Sekkanoki and lose the TP bonus on the first WS, when you could just ignore Sekkanoki and just WS when you hit 100TP each time.

This is assuming you only use Tachi: Gekko, of course. I am not factoring using Sekkanoki to set up a skillchain with lower damage WS.

Well, that's the thing though. Even with Hagun, if you have >100TP near the start of a mob and Sekka is up it makes sense to go Rana -> Gekko. If Darkness mirrors Gekko (which it seems to fairly often really), then you don't lose WS damage and gain a 100TP Rana (no fTP boost there anyway). That said, Sekka isn't really an option in any alliance meleeburn situation like Dynamis. Once you go above a party, your group is losing damage while you, "Wait guys, I'm going to open with a self-skillchain this time." With Soboro, Sekka still has a use in that you can go "Oh, I got ~135TP because it tripled when I only needed one hit for 100TP. Guess I'll Sekka and just be an attack round up on the next WS." Again, I doubt most of the people I play with are fast enough to realize that and I question whether the delay associated with using Sekka would even be worth it in that case, but it's theoretically possible.

I don't know how people feel about Yuki -> Gekko for Frag vs. Rana -> Gekko for Darkness, but I'd assume the latter is a much better option for damage overall.

Also, PS Thorny. If JA0 wait works, then I'd have to assume that delay is calculated client-side in some form. Actually (and this seems like an inefficient way to do it to me), the client could generate a JA usage and send an accompanying delay code to the server, so by replacing that delay code with an instant delay you could reduce the lag from using JAs to 0. This way weapon delay wouldn't be manipulatable but you could change your JA delays.
PPS. Does JA0wait work on WSs?

[FailureMidgard]

God, the mind boggles at the calculations involved in that. LOL

That said, and I am asking seriously here, can you think of a time when you would seriously use Sekkanoki with a Hagun? Meditate would just mean that your next WS came faster, not that you would hold the TP to use it with Sekkanoki.

You meditate at 40-50% right after a WS, warrior double attacks twice in a row, first as you hit meditate, then crit+DAs all hits on a RR and it dies, next pull is a bit slow and you hit 200 TP anyway (you may have DA'd when the warrior did for even more TP, but didn't quite hit 100).

You're fighting imps in SSR. You save TP for a lowman QQA in Arrapago. You save TP for a 2-3man mad bomber.
You're moving between camps in SSR.
You're moving between camps in Dyna.
You start Ein with 300 TP.
Chest in Limbus resets meditate timer, you have 20 TP, meditate gives 160 as you run.
Corsair puts you at 300tp with his 2hr.
You get slept/petrified/stunned while meditate is ticking.

Sekka may lower your average WS damage, but oh well. It -shouldn't- lower total damage, even without a skillchain:

200TP>300postBonus = 2.5+.1 = 2.6 fTP
100TP + 100>300postBonus = 1.5625+.1 + 1.875+.1 = 3.6375 fTP

[Thorny]

Also, PS Thorny. If JA0 wait works, then I'd have to assume that delay is calculated client-side in some form. Actually (and this seems like an inefficient way to do it to me), the client could generate a JA usage and send an accompanying delay code to the server, so by replacing that delay code with an instant delay you could reduce the lag from using JAs to 0. This way weapon delay wouldn't be manipulatable but you could change your JA delays.

That's the thing though, it doesn't work directly. If you use a JA, you'll have a wait of about 1 second added. However, if you spam a half dozen JAs back to back using JA0Wait to remove animation lock, it'll still just be about 1 second after the last JA. Shamaya's theory was that it's 2 seconds for a JA or WS and an additional second for each piled on top of that before the 2 seconds are up, but that can't be right as JA0Wait removes it and from a programming standpoint it's utterly ridiculous to send delay codes. These things all combined make it very confusing from my perspective, though my best guess is that a JA takes you out of 'meleeing' status and when you're done you get put back in, like a lessened disengage.

[ringthree]

That is a strange position, as people use theoretical comparisons all the time to guide decision-making (other factors like value also enter into it obviously). It is not impossible to approximate human error with "modeling" either. For example, you could say that "X% of the time I waste Y number of rounds holding TP" and then adjust the number of rounds accordingly," though accounting for effects on TP bonus might be tedious.

You can use them to guide decision-making, absolutely. The important word though is "guide". The problem that Failure has (and I completely agree) is that mdkuser and pchan are using their models, ones that are not even close to perfect before you even consider human error, as absolute evidence of the superiority of one weapon over another.

[FailureMidgard]

That is a strange position, as people use theoretical comparisons all the time to guide decision-making (other factors like value also enter into it obviously). It is not impossible to approximate human error with "modeling" either. For example, you could say that "X% of the time I waste Y number of rounds holding TP" and then adjust the number of rounds accordingly," though accounting for effects on TP bonus might be tedious.

I personally use theoretical comparisons as well, I'm not trying to say don't use them, I'm saying that some things should be based in reality, such as how a human plays. 4 STR will increase my base damage by 1 regardless of how I swing at the bird, StoreTP will give me a 6hit only if I play correctly, 100% of the time. If you want to try to calculate as you did, then you can. I'm merely saying use some parses to figure out what X and Y are, and go from there, rather than assuming perfect conditions. Theoretical calculations are 100% required to figure out what is better, but that doesn't mean they can't be based on reality.

If you're using tap water for some experiment with buoyancy, why assume it has the specific gravity of water instead of figuring out it's actual specific gravity, than proceeding with proper calculations from there?

You're misunderstanding me if you're getting that I'm saying not to use anything theoretical, or that human error can't be approximated. MDK mentioned that you shouldn't use a TP/WS split. I'm saying if I get a similar split every time I parse, using that split rather than working from the ground up on what my split -should- be IS accounting for human error at the base, then building up the theoretical "what's better" from there.

A good way to work around the different WS/TP ratios for both weapons is to calculate the percentual increases of both Soboro and Hagun over a hypothetical 40/450 one-hit GKT. It's half as easy to just calculate or simulate a WS/TP ratio of one weapon.

This is better than the way that MDK/PChan calculate it, I agree. But that being said, Soboro is more volatile to human error than Hagun is, a 5hit is more volatile than a 6hit. What you mention here is going halfway, in my opinion.

[ringthree]

You meditate at 40-50% right after a WS, warrior double attacks twice in a row, first as you hit meditate, then crit+DAs all hits on a RR and it dies, next pull is a bit slow and you hit 200 TP anyway (you may have DA'd when the warrior did for even more TP, but didn't quite hit 100).

You're fighting imps in SSR. You save TP for a lowman QQA in Arrapago. You save TP for a 2-3man mad bomber.
You're moving between camps in SSR.
You're moving between camps in Dyna.
You start Ein with 300 TP.
Chest in Limbus resets meditate timer, you have 20 TP, meditate gives 160 as you run.
Corsair puts you at 300tp with his 2hr.
You get slept/petrified/stunned while meditate is ticking.

Sekka may lower your average WS damage, but oh well. It -shouldn't- lower total damage, even without a skillchain:

200TP>300postBonus = 2.5+.1 = 2.6 fTP
100TP + 100>300postBonus = 1.5625+.1 + 1.875+.1 = 3.6375 fTP

Yeah, I had included some circumstances in my previous post that would have qualified my statement but I deleted them. I agree that they do exist, but the circumstances are few and far between.

[FailureMidgard]

Yeah, I had included some circumstances in my previous post that would have qualified my statement but I deleted them. I agree that they do exist, but the circumstances are few and far between.

I disagree. Also, I didn't list weakness, but any time you die if you're too scared to run into AoE range. There's tons of other times, too.

Does it happen every 5minutes? Not at all, but it easily happens often enough that it should have multiple occurrences in any and every event.

[ringthree]

I disagree. Also, I didn't list weakness, but any time you die if you're too scared to run into AoE range. There's tons of other times, too.

Does it happen every 5minutes? Not at all, but it easily happens often enough that it should have multiple occurrences in any and every event.

Fair enough. I knew there were exceptions, and I should have mentioned that because I got like 3 responses giving me examples I already knew about. It's most efficient to use your TP at 100 instead of using Sekkanoki, but yes, I understand that there are many cases that allow for the use of Sekkanoki. It would be very hard to model those cases without just guessing a figure though. Then you would have to model the bonus SC damage too.

So, lets just pretend it doesn't happen and save ourselves the headache?

[Byrthnoth]

That's the thing though, it doesn't work directly. If you use a JA, you'll have a wait of about 1 second added. However, if you spam a half dozen JAs back to back using JA0Wait to remove animation lock, it'll still just be about 1 second after the last JA. Shamaya's theory was that it's 2 seconds for a JA or WS and an additional second for each piled on top of that before the 2 seconds are up, but that can't be right as JA0Wait removes it and from a programming standpoint it's utterly ridiculous to send delay codes. These things all combined make it very confusing from my perspective, though my best guess is that a JA takes you out of 'meleeing' status and when you're done you get put back in, like a lessened disengage.

Aaaah, JA0wait removes the delay between ability usage. Sorry, thought it set the delay post-WS to 0. So, the implication is that normally you use one JA, have to wait the 1 second or whatever, then use another and have to wait again, etc etc. That makes sense to me, as I definitely have a set time I wait after using a JA before I try to use another. Magic has the same kind of delay system (you'll see the monster's HP drops before you can cast another nuke, some BLMs use this slight delay to take a few steps before starting their next spell).

[Thorny]

Aaaah, JA0wait removes the delay between ability usage. Sorry, thought it set the delay post-WS to 0. So, the implication is that normally you use one JA, have to wait the 1 second or whatever, then use another and have to wait again, etc etc. That makes sense to me, as I definitely have a set time I wait after using a JA before I try to use another. Magic has the same kind of delay system (you'll see the monster's HP drops before you can cast another nuke, some BLMs use this slight delay to take a few steps before starting their next spell).

JA0wait was designed to remove the movement lock: When using it, you don't stop running at all when you use meditate or such, without the need for blinking. This is just a side effect, though the fact it's client side and can be used to spam JAs faster makes quantifying the wait more confusing, at least to me.

[mdkuser]

I don't know how people feel about Yuki -> Gekko for Frag vs. Rana -> Gekko for Darkness, but I'd assume the latter is a much better option for damage overall.

personally, if berserk is up I rana > gekko, if not I yuki > gekko.

[CDF]

With the peanut gallery blabbing about the obvious and non-sequiturs--what does dual boxing and weakness have to do with anything unless, maybe, you are making a ridiculous argument that "X weapon makes me die more so it fucks my damage"--I'll just say I wouldn't play the human error card too much though for things not as marginal as Rindomaru vs Hagun.

[ringthree]

With the peanut gallery blabbing about the obvious and non-sequiturs--what does dual boxing and weakness have to do with anything unless, maybe, you are making a ridiculous argument that "X weapon makes me die more so it fucks my damage"--I'll just say I wouldn't play the human error card too much though for things not as marginal as Rindomaru vs Hagun.

No, Failure was saying when you are weakened you can get to 300TP and use Sekkanoki. It was just another situation where Sekkanoki is useful.

[pchan]

All I see is that the hagun bandwagon, when confronted with what maths actually says, still try to find arguments against other other option to justify their bad choice. WS/TP split, melee damage, ws damage, are ALL based on random number generators that are implented in the game mechanics. Arguing against that is called being butthurt. Human error factor is just ridiculous, and there is no reason to assume it affect more X weapon that Y weapon beause it's based on the person playing not the weapon ...

[FailureMidgard]

With the peanut gallery blabbing about the obvious and non-sequiturs--what does dual boxing and weakness have to do with anything unless, maybe, you are making a ridiculous argument that "X weapon makes me die more so it fucks my damage"--I'll just say I wouldn't play the human error card too much though for things not as marginal as Rindomaru vs Hagun.

Huh? You're completely missing the point, weakness was stating a time when Sekkanoki is also used. And I'm not "playing the human error card" for anything other than stating when there are such easy ways to go about calculating and accounting for it, why on earth would you use the pure theoretical values? Why use a 40tp/60ws split when every single time you've ever parsed it's been 35/65 or whatever. (I made these #s up just now). Which one is more accurate? They may even agree on what's better, but its stupidly easy to base the theoretical math on how you actually perform. Don't base car breaks on 0 second reaction time being required for them to be amply "safe", base it on some sort of average (or slow) human reaction time...

All I see is that the hagun bandwagon, when confronted with what maths actually says, still try to find arguments against other other option to justify their bad choice. WS/TP split, melee damage, ws damage, are ALL based on random number generators that are implented in the game mechanics. Arguing against that is called being butthurt. Human error factor is just ridiculous, and there is no reason to assume it affect more X weapon that Y weapon beause it's based on the person playing not the weapon ...

Yes, I am clearly trying to justify my bad gear choice ... oh wait. I'm not even saying which one is better at the moment, I'm saying the math you and mdk are doing is incomplete and incorrect. And how can you even argue that it doesn't affect 1 weapon more than the other?

Let's say once every 5 weaponskills you fuck up and swing an extra time. Auto-swing damage remains the same, but Hagun is now 5.2 hits per WS and Pachi is 4.2, meaning Pachi WSes (.2381-.1923)/.1923 = 23.82% more whereas it used to be (.25-.2)/.2 = 25% more. How is this not affecting one weapon more than the other? This isn't even mentioning the fact that Hagun gains more damage on said WS from this overflow TP than Pachi (even though Pachi gets ~3 TP more returned).