What's Better?

[Byrthnoth]

Human error factor is just ridiculous, and there is no reason to assume it affect more X weapon that Y weapon beause it's based on the person playing not the weapon ...

That said, I'd rather not see a bunch of imperfect, human SAMs go sell their Haguns because they read on BG that Soboro was better for the perfect player. I don't want Hagun to become a sign of gimpness, because for most people it is going to be better much of the time. People who don't really understand what they read when they see these discussions already do this.
Ex: I met a guy the other day who used Sword strap on SAM even though it broke his 6-hit.

Also, fact of the matter is that there are a ton of places I wouldn't want people using Soboro just because it's a multi-hit. For instance, recently I've been doing shout ISNMs pretty much daily (now I'm down to 7k IS, so I guess I won't be for long - PS. I'm 1/~25 on Khromas). Had a SAM show up wearing full Relic armor with Soboro (I can only assume terrible accuracy) and she still managed to hit enough that the Puks that round were much bitchier than normal. I don't think a marginal increase in damage is ever really worth the additional TP fed in a single-party situation (Gears in Salvage, ISNMs, Limbus, etc). In situations where the monsters are practically animation-locked because of how much TP they're getting (Dynamis), it probably doesn't matter.

Things I think there is consensus on:
1) If you're subbing Warrior, Hagun is better.
2) If you're subbing Dragoon or Ninja, Soboro is something between highly competitive and better than Hagun from a damage standpoint.
3) If you're in any situation where your job as SAM is to be a DD that doesn't feed much TP (any HNM, low-man vs. bad TP moves, etc), Hagun is better than Soboro.
4) Don't sell your Hagun.

[CDF]

Huh? You're completely missing the point, weakness was stating a time when Sekkanoki is also used. And I'm not "playing the human error card" for anything other than stating when there are such easy ways to go about calculating and accounting for it, why on earth would you use the pure theoretical values? Why use a 40tp/60ws split when every single time you've ever parsed it's been 35/65 or whatever. (I made these #s up just now). Which one is more accurate? They may even agree on what's better, but its stupidly easy to base the theoretical math on how you actually perform. Don't base car breaks on 0 second reaction time being required for them to be amply "safe", base it on some sort of average (or slow) human reaction time...

I skipped that post about Sekkanoki applications. I'm referring to Doom's laundry list of things "you can't calculate for."

Also, just because one thing has theoretically more potential than another thing (even if hard to realize that potential) doesn't mean throwing away common sense and situational awareness for shitty binary thinking. That is not really "our" problem.

[Dooom]

I skipped that post about Sekkanoki applications. I'm referring to Doom's laundry list of things "you can't calculate for."

I hardly think two examples qualifies as a "laundry list", and yes, they are examples of Sekkanoki applications. Dying and meditating TP provides a use for Sekkanoki; as does other forms of human error (like letting my samurai auto-swing while I focus on my dual box'd character, which is a form of distraction which even Failure commented on as providing potential Sekka applications). My comment about how you "can't calculate them" was in response to ringthree's offhand comment about how much of a nightmare calculating such things would be.

[CDF]

This ultimately goes to Byrthnoth's Soboro analysis, as there was acknowledgement about not accounting for Meditate effects in the calculations (then you would have to account for haste), then considering the effect of Sekkanoki on Soboro in the calculations. Then there was ringthree asking about the applications of Sekkanoki with a Hagun, which was getting away from a comparison with Soboro (because Hagun doesn't really benefit from that relative to Soboro, amirite), no nightmare calculations required. If you were just following ringthree's immediate train of thought, comments on inability to calculate did not follow.

[Arximiro]

Kubira Beads or Snow Gorget for RR when Agg is up and down? Sath was talking about how he uses it for Agg Up awhile back and I was curious if there was any decision on this.

[Meian]

Not sure if this is the proper place to ask but...

What would be the ideal HmP set that is reasonable to obtain for SMN and WHM?

Not really using much for WHM outside of the obvious Pluto's Staff (same I know as NQ) but on SMN using full Yigit based off an old HmP topic on KI but not much else.

[BroodIfrit]

Looking at working on a set of Cat's Claws for PUP. Torn between these three options:

DMG +8, Delay -5, Physical Damage Taken -5%

DMG +8, Delay -5, MP+30, Pet: Magic Accuracy +10

DMG +8, Delay -5, INT +4, Pet: Magic Attack Bonus +5

I already have Kenkonken, and since I usually use my Automaton in a Spiritweaver-friendly situation, I figure magic based were my best option. Suggestions?

[Meian]

Looking at working on a set of Cat's Claws for PUP. Torn between these three options:

DMG +8, Delay -5, Physical Damage Taken -5%

DMG +8, Delay -5, MP+30, Pet: Magic Accuracy +10

DMG +8, Delay -5, INT +4, Pet: Magic Attack Bonus +5

I already have Kenkonken, and since I usually use my Automaton in a Spiritweaver-friendly situation, I figure magic based were my best option. Suggestions?

Just from eyeing this I'd say it depends on what you're nuking usually. If you aren't having resist issues then I'd stick to the MAB. Physical damage taken isn't going to matter much if on Spiritweaver mode usually

[Aero]

Destroyers or Magian Trial weapons on a MNK that's JUST used for Salvage tanking?

Spend the time farming that you would have used making Magian kuckles and buy Hades Santi~.

[Mercilessturtle]

Looking at working on a set of Cat's Claws for PUP. Torn between these three options:

DMG +8, Delay -5, Physical Damage Taken -5%

DMG +8, Delay -5, MP+30, Pet: Magic Accuracy +10

DMG +8, Delay -5, INT +4, Pet: Magic Attack Bonus +5

I already have Kenkonken, and since I usually use my Automaton in a Spiritweaver-friendly situation, I figure magic based were my best option. Suggestions?

Damage taken is really common on oberon's, so its not hard to get 5% that way. Of the other two, I think you'll get more use out of the MAB. Most of the time if you are getting resisted without tranquillizer, 10 macc won't be enough to fix it, and then when you put tranquillizer on you won't need the 10 macc any more.

[arshesney]

Not sure if this is the proper place to ask but...

What would be the ideal HmP set that is reasonable to obtain for SMN and WHM?

Not really using much for WHM outside of the obvious Pluto's Staff (same I know as NQ) but on SMN using full Yigit based off an old HmP topic on KI but not much else.

Full yigit is a good start, it is roughly 11 hmp for the complete set (Refresh effect counts for a little more than 3 hmp).

Get an Ariesian grip (1) with allied notes, Beak necklace +1 (2), QQ sash +1 (3)(or Hierarch belt), Invigorating cape (2) and Antivenom earring (1) with assault points, you can farm organs for Relaxing earring (2).

I use a mix-match for visible gear: Selenian cap (3), Errant houppelande (5), Oracle hands (2), Oracle legs (2), Goliard feet (3) and have Magnetic earring (2) from apoclypse nigh.

If you do a lot of ZNMs oracles are fairly easy to get, AH gear is quite cheap now even the HQ. You can also buy the assault items from the AH, but I never seen any capes for sale (they sell damn fast).
Relaxing is a bitch to farm: don't waste time in Hu'Xzoi, drop rate is horrible there, thf and whm can duo the VT Eh'uvhi in Garden of Ru'Hmet easily.

[Meian]

Full yigit is a good start, it is roughly 11 hmp for the complete set (Refresh effect counts for a little more than 3 hmp).

Get an Ariesian grip (1) with allied notes, Beak necklace +1 (2), QQ sash +1 (3)(or Hierarch belt), Invigorating cape (2) and Antivenom earring (1) with assault points, you can farm organs for Relaxing earring (2).

I use a mix-match for visible gear: Selenian cap (3), Errant houppelande (5), Oracle hands (2), Oracle legs (2), Goliard feet (3) and have Magnetic earring (2) from apoclypse nigh.

If you do a lot of ZNMs oracles are fairly easy to get, AH gear is quite cheap now even the HQ. You can also buy the assault items from the AH, but I never seen any capes for sale (they sell damn fast).
Relaxing is a bitch to farm: don't waste time in Hu'Xzoi, drop rate is horrible there, thf and whm can duo the VT Eh'uvhi in Garden of Ru'Hmet easily.

Thx for the response

From what you listed I have Beak Necklace+1, Hierarch, Goliard Feet, Errant. Looks like I may need to stick with Yigit since I haven't decided on my Selenian Cap and no Oracle gear yet (started doing ZNMs hopefully will progress). Have about 4 Lumianan Tissues but the Euvhi ones ... >< I'll have to work on it lol... guessing SMN can't solo them?

Have Ethereal earring so no go with the Magnetic.

Very least I can get the grip, QQ belt, and assault items to gain +4 hmp then +2 more from relaxing.

[Arximiro]

Anyone? Kubira Beads for RR Vs. Gorget?

[Fridell]

So:
If you have good reaction time and don't wanna be lazy and have the gear for it use Soboro.
Use Hagun if you plan to play at a more normal human based level and semi-chill while playing.

I'd go with my Hagun based on that I dont wanna sit and react to every small variable coming my direction while playing and play somewhat like a human being.

[mdkuser]

So:
If you have good reaction time and don't wanna be lazy and have the gear for it use Soboro.
Use Hagun if you plan to play at a more normal human based level and semi-chill while playing.

I'd go with my Hagun based on that I dont wanna sit and react to every small variable coming my direction while playing and play somewhat like a human being.

except nobody has proved that hagun is better when you take human factor into account ( i dont see why it would). awaiting to see how they "modelize human factor".

[Falaras]

Severence (Dmg+20, Delay-15, DEX+4, accuracy+12) vs Perdu Sickle.
Assuming unmerited Scythe and pizza+1 so my accuracy isn't exactly too hot (hard to use blitz ring)

[Akyrey90]

What's better for BRD debuff:

Omega/Nereid or Omega/Angel's?

Obviously Nereidx2 for buff.

i'd go with Omega/Angel's for debuff,even better would be omega/balrahn's if u have it(outside assault or salvage too) :D

[Akyrey90]

Thx for the response

From what you listed I have Beak Necklace+1, Hierarch, Goliard Feet, Errant. Looks like I may need to stick with Yigit since I haven't decided on my Selenian Cap and no Oracle gear yet (started doing ZNMs hopefully will progress). Have about 4 Lumianan Tissues but the Euvhi ones ... >< I'll have to work on it lol... guessing SMN can't solo them?

Have Ethereal earring so no go with the Magnetic.

Very least I can get the grip, QQ belt, and assault items to gain +4 hmp then +2 more from relaxing.

if u want to maximise the Hmp,u can heal in yy robe and noble's tunic for the first 18 seconds,then macro in errant houppelande!so u get the 3+mp per tick for refresh and the +5 Hmp even on the first tick :D

[pchan]

miss

[pchan]

except nobody has proved that hagun is better when you take human factor into account ( i dont see why it would). awaiting to see how they "modelize human factor".

They won't bring anything in the discussion but oppose the fact that soboro beat hagun to human factor supposedly advantaging hagun. Same guys that call people gimps for using askar head over turban find excuses for using usukane feet over dusk and hagun over soboro. They paid 3M for it it must be good.