What's Better?

[Kirschy]

This has probably been asked/answered here but, whats better
Radennotachi
DMG:79 Delay: 450
DMG+10

Or

Hagun
DMG:75
TP bonus?

If you do a basic comparison to a DMG: 75 Delay 450 GKT:

Raden is an ~18.7% increase in both your Melee Swings and WS.
Hagun is 0% increase your Melee Swings, and ~20% increase in WS.

Assuming any situation where you can melee + WS (ie; not only using WS because your LS doesn't want you giving tp to the mob), Raden should come out around 4-6% higher.

[mdkuser]

it's actually lower because raden's +10 dmg doesnt affect ws the same way as melee. its more like +19% melee and +8%ws. ive done the details afew pages ago it wins by 1% ish if you are full time on the mob.

[FailureMidgard]

If you do a basic comparison to a DMG: 75 Delay 450 GKT:

Raden is an ~18.7% increase in both your Melee Swings and WS.
Hagun is 0% increase your Melee Swings, and ~20% increase in WS.

Assuming any situation where you can melee + WS (ie; not only using WS because your LS doesn't want you giving tp to the mob), Raden should come out around 4-6% higher.

it's actually lower because raden's +10 dmg doesnt affect ws the same way as melee. its more like +19% melee and +8%ws. ive done the details afew pages ago it wins by 1% ish if you are full time on the mob.

Mdk is right here...it's ~+14/82-90=15-17% on Melee swings, and ~+14/175-180=7.5-8% on WS.

Past that, you're both assuming a "normal" pdif, which is ok, but should be clarified. On higher defense targets, Raden should fall behind.

[Kirschy]

Bleh looks like I forgot to account for secondary mods for the WS portion :/ Sorries

[ringthree]

Bleh looks like I forgot to account for secondary mods for the WS portion :/ Sorries

It looks like it is another situation of "better on Greater Colibri, but not on real mobs".

[Auspice]

Here goes: I just got an Alkalurops tonight and have been mining the old BG threads about it. I can't decide if it's worth keeping if I'm only going to be using it for mid resist slow/para on my RDM. There was talk of using it on ele enfeebs for BLM but would it be worthwhile to use Alk on RDM/BLM for ele enfeebles too? It seems this might be better for silence/gravity/bind/blind too, is that the case? Also, how will my results look on using Alk for nukes over the rainbow of HQ staves?

[DantesTheBannedPLD]

Mdk is right here...it's ~+14/82-90=15-17% on Melee swings, and ~+14/175-180=7.5-8% on WS.

Past that, you're both assuming a "normal" pdif, which is ok, but should be clarified. On higher defense targets, Raden should fall behind.

so hagun still better on HNMs?

[mdkuser]

so hagun still better on HNMs?

normal pDIF situation ( not too weak mob but not too strong: dynamis/salvage/einherjar etc)
with melee pDIF=1.2 and wspdif=1.85 ( cap on lv 82 )

raden=+1.08%


very high pDIF situation ( let's say even match mob or less: nyzlulsolo random stuff etc) pDIF=2.2 for melee and ws

radennotachi=+3.5%


Very High level or very high DEF situation: let's say a level 90 mob, with 450 def.

melee pDIF=0.35 WSpDIF=1.25 ( 15 level difference)

hagun=+3%

Note: again, situation 3 is one of those situations where hagun wins because you're not trying to deal damage seriously. If you are seriously trying on HNM then you'll have reall debuffs and buffs: dia3 chaos roll, minuets , which will solve your very low pDIF problems and we are back to situation 1 or 2: hagun is only better if you are not trying to deal damage.

[drwaffles]

Here goes: I just got an Alkalurops tonight and have been mining the old BG threads about it. I can't decide if it's worth keeping if I'm only going to be using it for mid resist slow/para on my RDM. There was talk of using it on ele enfeebs for BLM but would it be worthwhile to use Alk on RDM/BLM for ele enfeebles too? It seems this might be better for silence/gravity/bind/blind too, is that the case? Also, how will my results look on using Alk for nukes over the rainbow of HQ staves?

Alkalurops is only good for elemental DoTs and Slow/Paralyze. It gives less potency than a Mythic +1 or Mistilteinn/Muse combo, but it's close enough to Terra's/Aquilo's Staff's magic accuracy (i.e. slightly lower or equal to) that it's worth using most of the time. I don't have one at the moment, but if I did I'd probably cast Slow/Paralyze in it 90% of the time since the extra magic accuracy means you can feel more secure sacrificing accuracy in other slots than you would using club/shield. I'd probably still use a HQ staff for stuff that resists with some degree of frequency, though.

[Tsuko_Asura]

SAM/THF SA+Gekko

Grip/Body/Hands

Brave/Shinku Togi/Shinku Kote
or
Axe/Osode/Alky

STR+7 Atk+8 Inc. Crit Damage x3
or
STR+24

Don't sub THF

[FailureMidgard]

normal pDIF situation ( not too weak mob but not too strong: dynamis/salvage/einherjar etc)
with melee pDIF=1.2 and wspdif=1.85 ( cap on lv 82 )

raden=+1.08%


very high pDIF situation ( let's say even match mob or less: nyzlulsolo random stuff etc) pDIF=2.2 for melee and ws

radennotachi=+3.5%


Very High level or very high DEF situation: let's say a level 90 mob, with 450 def.

melee pDIF=0.35 WSpDIF=1.25 ( 15 level difference)

hagun=+3%

Note: again, situation 3 is one of those situations where hagun wins because you're not trying to deal damage seriously. If you are seriously trying on HNM then you'll have reall debuffs and buffs: dia3 chaos roll, minuets , which will solve your very low pDIF problems and we are back to situation 1 or 2: hagun is only better if you are not trying to deal damage.

So if you're "seriously" trying to damage an HNM you'll have 2 bards (or a rotation) and a cor and not be fighting Odin. Gotcha.
For the record, a Sam with only 1 bard getting march+ballad+haste in a tank party already does far far more damage than any black mage can hope to do on Tiamat. I'm not going to debate that more buffs would make it that much better, but saying you'll always have 2 marches 2 minuets and chaos roll is a bit silly, in my personal opinion. Oh, and in the above situation on Tiamat, you're not "not trying to deal damage".

Also, where did you get 450 defense? Because according to Araelus(sp?), HNMs have far more than 450 defense.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1075/defstuffcopy.png



It's okay though, we're used to your propaganda.

[Marcicus]

Don't sub THF

Seriously, don't start that shit here.

[Castellano]

Ire torque +1 (Str +7)
vs
Sea Gorget
for Yuki/Gekko/Kasha

[pchan]

So if you're "seriously" trying to damage an HNM you'll have 2 bards (or a rotation) and a cor and not be fighting Odin. Gotcha.
For the record, a Sam with only 1 bard getting march+ballad+haste in a tank party already does far far more damage than any black mage can hope to do on Tiamat. I'm not going to debate that more buffs would make it that much better, but saying you'll always have 2 marches 2 minuets and chaos roll is a bit silly, in my personal opinion. Oh, and in the above situation on Tiamat, you're not "not trying to deal damage".

Also, where did you get 450 defense? Because according to Araelus(sp?), HNMs have far more than 450 defense.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1075/defstuffcopy.png



It's okay though, we're used to your propaganda.

Araleus is an idiot that can only do good looking graphs without anything to back it up. He already made the exponential graph (which is plainly wrong) for crit that I've seen in many thread for years on the forum because , well, it's easy to make good looking graphics, and he probably pulled it out of his ass. I'd like to know how you calculate HNM's DEF and VIT though. Keep in mind that the cratio capping before level correction is applied (on level 95 hnm ratio would cap at 1.25 and therefore average pdif would cap at about 1.25 too for 2h DD) was only discovered recently (check gekko testing thread), and that could be the reason why hnm are considered to have that much DEF while in reality it could only be a matter level difference. So stop using shiny graphs and give actual data.

[Vodou]

Also, where did you get 450 defense? Because according to Araelus(sp?), HNMs have far more than 450 defense.

This might be the source of the revision starting with the thread bump at post 111 by Yarko.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...t=68018&page=4

[pchan]

from that post :

- HNM's defense is not linear with their LV:
Khimaira/Cerberus are only LV85 but they seem to have 470-500 defense (Cerberus also gets some huge DMG-% at low health though);
Dark Ixion/Fafnir are LV88-90 but they seem to have much lower defense, 370-380;
JoL is LV83 but has a fuckton of defense, 780-820;
Tiamat is LV95 and only seems to have 350-370 defense.

Only JoL has huge def he says, not surprisingg if you ever tried to melee it without dia III.

[Khajit]

Got any more info on the defense of high lv mobs? this is exactly what i was looking for when i asked about hnm defense like a month ago for ws optimization at ls events.

[Jazz]

Salamand Sword GS-

Final weapon stats with trial 226- DMG:71, delay:480, Occasionally attacks twice.

It needs 30 StoreTP for a 6hit, so...

I suppose best way to do it would be: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and aurum body. (there would be other options, like askar body instead of aurum body, but you sacrifice even more etc.) Alternatively, could probably use carbonara instead of aurum body, though you wouldn't be able to eat pizza if necessary, (GS tends to need more ACC for TP specially since you usually get it out for HNMs.... ) or you wouldn't be able to eat better attack food etc etc.

ok, question is:

Try to make a 6hit with that 480 delay... or just use Sword strap and 7 hit it with 465 delay ?

[Auspice]

Alkalurops is only good for elemental DoTs and Slow/Paralyze. It gives less potency than a Mythic +1 or Mistilteinn/Muse combo, but it's close enough to Terra's/Aquilo's Staff's magic accuracy (i.e. slightly lower or equal to) that it's worth using most of the time. I don't have one at the moment, but if I did I'd probably cast Slow/Paralyze in it 90% of the time since the extra magic accuracy means you can feel more secure sacrificing accuracy in other slots than you would using club/shield. I'd probably still use a HQ staff for stuff that resists with some degree of frequency, though.

That's pretty much what I assumed from the threads I went over. Gonna unload it, thanks.

[Zatho]

Do people forget that on a lot of HNMs u can't be fulltime when they do all their maths against hagun? Last time i checked while u can tp on ixion u still have to evade his moves. A lot of people will use sams to TA sometimes SA on tiamat/jorm, cerberus people stay on it the whole time depending on their numbers. Khim sams don't usually fulltime on, lambton worm u do not stay on it the whole time. KA worm people don't tp on, guivre worm u can't fulltime on it. I can see serket worm being tped on whole fight based on numbers and is lolserket. Sarameya is tp burned, tyger lots of shells use smns/rngs and hydra is usually war tanked.I mean i know some shells do stuff different and if u can tp fulltime on all this mobs good for u. KB gets kited last i checked, aspid mainly blm burned, yes u can fulltime on nid/faf. I mean i know u try pchan but maybe u should go back to ur endgame AKA salvage bosses. When u do something in the game besides salvage, nyzul isle or merits maybe people will care about the shit coming out of ur posts. Before people start jumping sea mobs are a joke with the exception of AV. Sky gods i'm sure u all know is like killing rabbits in east ronfaure, maybe tier 3 ein and u should be on war drk drg for that.