What's Better?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Pchan and Mdk won't be necessary to tell you how wrong you are.

Even if I wasn't already aware that you're incredibly wrong, I wouldn't put much faith in the "simple calculations" of a person who blatantly declares they have no grasp on melee mechanics two sentences later.

[ringthree]

Pchan and Mdk won't be necessary to tell you how wrong you are.

Even if I wasn't already aware that you're incredibly wrong, I wouldn't put much faith in the "simple calculations" of a person who blatantly declares they have no grasp on melee mechanics two sentences later.

I don't follow. What did you take as my "declaration" of my failure to grasp melee mechanics?

Honestly, the fundamental math is pretty simple. It takes some really poor assumptions or calculations to come up with Soboro even coming close. (Pchan and mdkusers initial problem is the assumption of an even distribution of # of attacks per round for the Soboro).

[Tsuko_Asura]

And that is on Greater Colibri. Hagun will pull further ahead on mobs with higher level, VIT and defense.

Sup

And the fact that you don't understand the intricacies of these particular parts of damage output makes you completely unqualified to assess the difference between a Hagun and a Soboro Sukehiro.

Edit: And incidentally, the same reason that nobody has any busy taking advice from Therin in regard to anything that requires calculation.

[Byrthnoth]

If you download this (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QA20VLZ2), you can enter in your own stats and compare the two GKTs on whatever mob you want. I've bolded all the fields you might have to change. It's in excel (.xls) so I'm sorry if it doesn't work for you. I use an old PowerPC mac at home though, so that's all I've got.

[mdkuser]

OpenOffice.org is available free for all plateforms and compatible with excell formats.

[midguardian]

My simple calculations has Soboro so far behind Hagun and Radennotachi that it isn't even close.

Please post your simple calculations. If there are any oversights I'm sure you'll recieve some constructive criticism.

[ringthree]

Please post your simple calculations. If there are any oversights I'm sure you'll recieve some constructive criticism.

LOL I am sure I will have my head bashed in.

Spoiler: show

Greater Colibri: Level: 82, Defense: 327, VIT: 67

Melee:

Radennotachi:
Weapon Damage: 89
Weapon Rank: 9
Low Cap fSTR: -9
High Cap fSTR: 17
STR: 110
fSTR: ((110 – 67) + 4)/4 = 11
Base Damage: 89 + 11 = 100

Ratio: (435/327) = 1.330
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.330 – 0.35 = .98
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (.98 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .676
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.234

Damage = Base Damage x pDIF
Minimum Damage = 100 x .676 = 67
Maximum Damage = 100 x 1.234 = 123
Average Melee Damage = 95

With Hasso:
fSTR: ((120 – 67) +4)/4 = 14
Ratio: (443/327) = 1.354
cRatio: 1.354 – 0.35 = 1.004
fMIN: (1.004 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .704
fMAX: (1.004 x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.265
Minimum Damage = 72
Maximum Damage = 130
Average Hasso Damage = 101

With Hasso and Berserk:
fSTR: ((120 – 67) +4)/4 = 14
Ratio: (553/327) = 1.691
cRatio: 1.691 – 0.35 = 1.341
fMIN: (1.341 x 1.2) – 0.5 = 1.109
fMAX: (1.341 x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.689
Minimum Damage = 114
Maximum Damage = 173
Average Hasso and Berserk = 143

Hagun:
Weapon Damage: 75
Weapon Rank: 8
Low Cap fSTR = -8
High Cap fSTR = 16
STR: 110
fSTR: ((110 -67) + 4)/4 = 11
Base Damage: 75 + 11 = 86

Ratio: (435/327) = 1.330
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.330 – 0.35 = .98
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (.98 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .676
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.234

Damage = Base Damage x pDIF
Minimum Damage = 86 x .676 = 58
Maximum Damage = 86 x 1.234 = 106
Average Melee Damage = 82

With Hasso:
fSTR: ((120 -67) + 4)/4 = 14
Ratio: (443/327) = 1.354
cRatio: 1.354 – 0.35 = 1.004
fMIN: (1.004 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .704
fMAX: (1.004 x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.265
Minimum Damage = 62
Maximum Damage = 112
Average Hasso Damage = 87

With Hasso and Berserk:
fSTR: ((120 – 67) +4)/4 = 14
Ratio: (553/327) = 1.691
cRatio: 1.691 – 0.35 = 1.341
fMIN: (1.341 x 1.2) – 0.5 = 1.109
fMAX: (1.341 x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.689
Minimum Damage = 98
Maximum Damage = 150
Average Hasso and Berserk = 124

Soboro:
Weapon Damage: 40
Weapon Rank: 4
Low Cap fSTR: -4
High Cap fSTR: 12
STR: 110
fSTR: ((110-67) + 4)/4 = 11
Base Damage: 40 + 11 = 51

Ratio: (435/327) = 1.330
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.330 – 0.35 = .98
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (.98 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .676
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.234

Damage = Base Damage x pDIF
Minimum Damage = 51 x .676 = 34
Maximum Damage = 51 x 1.234 = 62
Average Melee Damage = 48

With Hasso:
fSTR: ((120 -67) + 4)/4 = 14 but capped at 12.
Ratio: (443/327) = 1.354
cRatio: 1.354 – 0.35 = 1.004
fMIN: (1.004 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .704
fMAX: (1.004 x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.265
Minimum Damage = 36
Maximum Damage = 65
Average Hasso Damage = 50

With Hasso and Berserk:
fSTR: ((120 – 67) +4)/4 = 14 but capped at 12.
Ratio: (553/327) = 1.691
cRatio: 1.691 – 0.35 = 1.341
fMIN: (1.341 x 1.2) – 0.5 = 1.109
fMAX: (1.341 x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.689
Minimum Damage = 57
Maximum Damage = 87
Average Hasso and Berserk = 72

Tachi: Gekko
WS formula: Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
There is also a pDIF/Attack modifier on Tachi: Gekko and several other Weapon Skills, this will be noted in the calculations.

Radennotachi:
Weapon Damage: 89
Weapon Rank: 9
Low Cap fSTR: -9
High Cap fSTR: 17
STR: 132
fSTR: ((132 – 67) +4)/4 = 17 but capped at 17.
WSC: (132 x 0.75) x .83 = 82
fTP: 1.5625

Ratio: (452/327) = 1.382
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.382 – 0.35 = 1.032
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.032 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .738
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.300
WS modified cRatio fMIN: .738 x 2 = 1.476
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.300 x 2 = 2.600

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((89 + 17 + 82) x 1.5625) x 1.476 = 433
WSmax = ((89 + 17 + 82) x 1.5625) x 2.600 = 763
Average WS Damage = 598

With Hasso:
STR: 142
fSTR: ((142 – 67) +4)/4 = 19 but capped at 17.
WSC: (142 x 0.75) x .83 = 88
Ratio: (459/327) = 1.403
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.403 – 0.35 = 1.053
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.032 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .763
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.326
WS modified cRatio fMIN: .763 x 2 = 1.526
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.326 x 2 = 2.652

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((89 + 17 + 88) x 1.5625) x 1.526 = 462
WSmax = ((89 + 17 + 88) x 1.5625) x 2.652 = 803
Average WS Damage = 632

With Hasso and Berserk:
STR: 142
fSTR: ((142 – 67) +4)/4 = 19 but capped at 17.
WSC: (142 x 0.75) x .83 = 88
Ratio: (573/327) = 1.752
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.752 – 0.35 = 1.402
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.402 x 1.2) – 0.5 = 1.182.
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.766
WS modified cRatio fMIN: 1.182 x 2 = 2.364
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.766 x 2 = 3.532

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((89 + 17 + 88) x 1.5625) x 2.364 = 716
WSmax = ((89 + 17 + 88) x 1.5625) x 3.532 = 1070
Average WS Damage = 893

With Hasso, Berserk and WS Gorget:
Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((89 + 17 + 88) x (1.5625 +.1)) x 2.364 = 194 x 1.6625 x 2.364 = 762
WSmax = ((89 + 17 + 88) x (1.5625 +.1)) x 3.532 = 194 x 1.6625 x 3.532 = 1139
Average WS Damage = 950

Hagun:
Weapon Damage: 75
Weapon Rank: 8
Low Cap fSTR = -8
High Cap fSTR = 16
STR: 132
fSTR: ((132 -67) + 4)/2 = 17 but capped at 16.
WSC: (132 x 0.75) x .83 = 82
fTP: 1.875

Ratio: (452/327) = 1.382
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.382 – 0.35 = 1.032
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.032 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .738
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.300
WS modified cRatio fMIN: .738 x 2 = 1.476
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.300 x 2 = 2.600

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((75 + 16 + 82) x 1.875) x 1.476 = 478
WSmax = ((75 + 16 + 82) x 1.875) x 2.600 = 843
Average WS Damage = 660

With Hasso:
STR: 142
fSTR: ((142 – 67) +4)/2 = 19 but capped at 16.
WSC: (142 x 0.75) x .83 = 88
Ratio: (459/327) = 1.403
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.403 – 0.35 = 1.053
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.032 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .763
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.326
WS modified cRatio fMIN: .763 x 2 = 1.526
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.326 x 2 = 2.652

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((75 + 16 + 88) x 1.875) x 1.526 = 179 x 1.875 x 1.526 = 512
WSmax = ((75 + 16 + 88) x 1.875) x 2.652 = 179 x 1.875 x 2.652 = 890
Average WS Damage = 701

With Hasso and Berserk:
STR: 142
fSTR: ((142 – 67) +4)/2 = 19 but capped at 17.
WSC: (142 x 0.75) x .83 = 88
Ratio: (573/327) = 1.752
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.752 – 0.35 = 1.402
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.402 x 1.2) – 0.5 = 1.182.
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.766
WS modified cRatio fMIN: 1.182 x 2 = 2.364
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.766 x 2 = 3.532

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((75 + 16 + 88) x 1.875) x 2.364 = 179 x 1.875 x 2.364 = 793
WSmax = ((75 + 16 + 88) x 1.875) x 3.532 = 179 x 1.875 x 3.532 = 1185
Average WS Damage = 989

With Hasso, Berserk and WS Gorget:
Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((75 + 16 + 88) x (1.875 +.1)) x 2.364 = 179 x 1.975 x 2.364 = 835
WSmax = ((75 + 16 + 88) x (1.875 +.1)) x 3.532 = 179 x 1.975 x 3.532 = 1248
Average WS Damage = 1041

Soboro:
Weapon Damage: 40
Weapon Rank: 4
Low Cap fSTR: -4
High Cap fSTR: 12
STR: 132
fSTR: ((132-67) + 4)/4 = 17 but capped at 12.
WSC: (132 x 0.75) x .83 = 82
fTP: 1.5625

Ratio: (452/327) = 1.382
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.382 – 0.35 = 1.032
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.032 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .738
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.300
WS modified cRatio fMIN: .738 x 2 = 1.476
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.300 x 2 = 2.600

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((40 + 12 + 82) x 1.5625) x 1.476 = 309
WSmax = ((40 + 12 + 82) x 1.5625) x 2.600 = 544
Average WS Damage = 426

With Hasso:
STR: 142
fSTR: ((142 – 67) +4)/4 = 19 but capped at 12.
WSC: (142 x 0.75) x .83 = 88
Ratio: (459/327) = 1.403
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.403 – 0.35 = 1.053
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.032 x 1.2) – 0.5 = .763
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.326
WS modified cRatio fMIN: .763 x 2 = 1.526
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.326 x 2 = 2.652

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((40 + 12 + 88) x 1.5625) x 1.526 = 140 x 1.5625 x 1.526 = 333
WSmax = ((40 + 12 + 88) x 1.5625) x 2.652 = 140 x 1.5625 x 2.652 = 580
Average WS Damage = 456

With Hasso and Berserk:
STR: 142
fSTR: ((142 – 67) +4)/2 = 38 but capped at 17.
WSC: (142 x 0.75) x .83 = 88
Ratio: (573/327) = 1.752
cRatio: Ratio - (0.05 x (82-75)) = 1.752 – 0.35 = 1.402
fMIN: (cRatio x 1.2) – 0.5 = (1.402 x 1.2) – 0.5 = 1.182.
fMAX: (cRatio x 1.2) x 1.05 = 1.766
WS modified cRatio fMIN: 1.182 x 2 = 2.364
WS modified cRatio fMAX: 1.766 x 2 = 3.532

Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((40 + 12 + 88) x 1.5625) x 2.364 = 140 x 1.5625 x 2.364 = 517
WSmax = ((40 + 12 + 88) x 1.5625) x 3.532 = 140 x 1.5625 x 3.532 = 772
Average WS Damage = 644

With Hasso, Berserk and WS Gorget:
Damage = (Weapon Damage + fSTR + Weapon Skill Modifier) * fTP * pDIF
WSmin = ((40 + 12 + 88) x (1.5625 +.1)) x 2.364 = 140 x 1.6625 x 2.364 = 550
WSmax = ((40 + 12 + 88) x (1.5625 +.1)) x 3.532 = 140 x 1.6625 x 3.532 = 822
Average WS Damage = 686

I am much more unsure of how I figured Soboro attack rounds, how many rounds to get to 100TP, and how much extra melee damage it gets from "wasted" swings. This is much more guess work here.

Spoiler: show

Great Katana damage per TP phase and WS: (Average melee damage x 5) + Average WS damage
(Notes on Soboro Adjusted WS Damage: I used 3 rounds after WS to 100TP for simplicity sake, this model is more favorable to Soboro than the most reliable calculation I have seen regarding Soboros extra attacks. I also gave Soboro one extra attack round for damage, because it will have damage from “wasted” swings).

No modifications (no WS gorget):
Radennotachi: (95 x 5) + 598 = 1073
Hagun: (82 x 5) + 660 = 1070
Soboro: (48 x 6) + 639 = 927
(Adjusted WS Damage = (Average WS Damage x 3)/2 = 639)

All modifications:
Radennotachi: (143 x 5) + 950 = 1665
Hagun: (124 x 5) + 1041 = 1661
Soboro: (72 x 6) + 1029 = 1461

(Adjusted WS Damage = (Average WS Damage x 3)/2 = 1029)

[Akyrey90]

if you need erase

sub whm

if you aren't getting refresh, sub sch.

if you are level 80

sub rdm

this but the last part!prolly /sch gonna be better than /rdm since convert wont prolly be 100% hp>mp,so u should get equal if not a bit less mp from subli.gonna remember that as /sch u always have -nas spells that can save your life many times! SS from EW should be always be better than SS from /whm since lolsmnenhancingmagic,so it should be even better!be /whm tho when u in pt with a rdm and u'll be set!

[Nightfyre]

this but the last part!prolly /sch gonna be better than /rdm since convert wont prolly be 100% hp>mp,so u should get equal if not a bit less mp from subli.gonna remember that as /sch u always have -nas spells that can save your life many times! SS from EW should be always be better than SS from /whm since lolsmnenhancingmagic,so it should be even better!be /whm tho when u in pt with a rdm and u'll be set!

That's really hard to read... half potency Vert is at least as good as Sublimation. Given that you probably can't charge Sublimation to full every time, it's easily better. Also, Refresh. Usual shit is situational applies for the rest.

[Akyrey90]

That's really hard to read... half potency Vert is at least as good as Sublimation. Given that you probably can't charge Sublimation to full every time, it's easily better. Also, Refresh. Usual shit is situational applies for the rest.

yeah i was assuming he could always get subli complete with full hp,my bad!anyway i was answering about lvl 80,so he wouldn't have refresh!gonna be all different past that

question not about this:for a pup lvl 59 poppet katars or Tactician Magician's Hooks +2?

[Chen]

bird banes!

[nitsuj]

Martial Gun vs Magian Gun (COR)

[Fingerspitz]

Tomoe v. Gondo? (for SAM of course)

[Martinius]

tomoe.

[Fingerspitz]

Flat out? I would have figured there would be a small enough difference between 1DMG 5 acc/atk and 6% crits that it would depend on the situation.

[Nightfyre]

Flat out? I would have figured there would be a small enough difference between 1DMG 5 acc/atk and 6% crits that it would depend on the situation.

Penta doesn't crit.

[Fingerspitz]

Fair enough. Got a friend who needs aurum boots anyway. Thanks.

[mdkuser]

Flat out? I would have figured there would be a small enough difference between 1DMG 5 acc/atk and 6% crits that it would depend on the situation.

I'm going to do the maths later, but this is basically the same argument as destroyers vers hades sainti+1 for monk, basically; for H2H weapons, 1 base dmg on hades+1 does not beat 6% crits, but 2 base dmg do. So you just have to make sure that your extra accuracy on the weapon are actually used, either by giving you +2~3% hit rate ( uncaped acc), or allowing you to swap in more attack on other slots. We are talking about polearm sams, even with sushi they have to use cuchu mantle to get a decent acc with max haste, so tomoe should win. That said, for a polearm, 1 base dmg should be less percentual increase than 1 base dmg on H2H so its not that clear that for example, 1 base dmg + 4 str from a ring or 15 attack from a mantle beats 6% crits.

[TheCaptain]

Debating on the OAT Scythe and the OAT Gun.. I'm leaning towards gun, but there seems to be more problems with the gun than scythe.. First off, money.. Bullets are gonna cost alot.. Which I'm kind of okay with, but it's a con non the less.. Then there's the hate issue.. RNG has no /thf option.. Even with /nin or /sam, you have to be somewhat close to the mob as to not drag him away from tanks or near healers.. Noone likes having to chase mobs around.. However, the gun probably would do more damage, depending on support, and being out of AoE range is always nice as long as you aren't pulling hate.. I love playing RNG though.. Just lookin for some opinions/advice..

[sruon]

I'd jump on the OAT gun if I still played Ranger.