What's Better?

[Jazz]

Martial beats all the other gswords though.

With a very solid 7 hit setup, it is at the very least very competitive IMO, yes.

Going from 2.5ftp to 3.0ftp with the TP bonus effect is a 20% boost to Spinning Slash.

IIRC even after taking into account the higher base dmg of Naglering over Martial, the TP bonus still gives Martial an ~12.3% WS dmg boost over an 85dmg GS. Attack does little to nothing for Spinning slash due to the Cratio bonus, though yes, on the hardest mobs attack still does some for the WS because on the higher HNMs the Cratio bonus is still not enough to cap you.

A 7hit with 444 delay also does an extra swing on the way to 100% TP, yet it still gets to 100% TP at about same time as a Naglering 6hit with 501 delay. (the difference gets smaller with haste actually, Example: with both weapons having 42% haste Naglering 6hit gets to 100% TP ~0.9secs faster than a 7hit with 444 delay.)

Meditate, and Absorb-TP should favor Martial more since Martial hits harder on WS. Logically the more your dmg comes from WS the better Martial should get.

7hit with 444 delay requires either 28STP for TP and 21 for WS, OR 27STP for TP and 26STP for WS.

IMO, You could do: /sam, rajas ring ,rose strap, brutal earring, and white Tathlum OR ecphoria ring + attila's earring, if you can augment the attilas's earring with something nice, or if not then Chivalrous chain + echphoria ring... that gives the +27STP for TP and as for the 26STP for WS, you only need /sam, rajas ring, rose strap, brutal earring, and Attila's earring. (WSing in Attila's shouldn't be that bad of a sacrifice for the X-hit build)That build allows you to wear any body for TP, like E-body etc.

I think definitely good for DI, and for other usage it will have to depend on how much of your dmg is coming from WS, but again, it I think it looks at least very good with the right setup.

Nevertheless, the new OAT GS, Salamand sword also says hi !

That new OAT GS is actually most likely the new best GS out there, if you are engaged/meleeing and don't care about TP feeding the mob.

[Cream Soda]

Thanx for the answers to the daggers questions.

And to answer some of the above questions:

Destroyers beats Mantis. Hades+1 only beats destroyers BARELY and only when acc is uncapped, so dont be too worried about them.

Nagelring beats Subduer, mostly due to the delay difference allowing for easier X hit builds, (and ofcourse the attack).

And the above post: Remember your Sam WSs get a huge acc boost for being single hit so with pizza odds are you'll be capped on WS acc either way.

Where are you getting "BARELY" from? 4.5% hitrate in uncapped acc beats 6% crits (which only apply to DoT) w/o even looking at the 1 DMG increase, lol.

[mdkuser]

Hell, attack in general as a food/ja buff (read: when it affects tp AND ws damage) is underrated for thief completely here. I mean hell, on colibri an acc build (anwig acc/haste+3 and mirke dw/acc) with mithkabobs is basically equal a similar build with turban/raparee (Assuming proper gear in the other slots: cuch, love, tore/rajas, homams etc) and crab sushi. As soon as you factor in being able to Feint every 2minutes and swap to rapparee/turban, then the acc+mithkabob setup beats it comfortably.

I really agree with Raen here, dropping from pizza to sushi wont be worth the few %s haste you can get unless you're buffed out the hoo-har on attack.

I see no point either when the haste+6 head piece or haste neck will be worthwhile if they're lowering your acc, or if they mean using them forces you to use sushi over pizza.

Prove it, do the maths instead of claiming something. Just because you're eating pizza does not give you automatically 50 attack. The sushi set up obviously has an advantage of giving a big STR boost: flame ring, and +5STR from sushi, as well as +23.5 attack from back, ammo, ring. Therefore it's not +50 attack versus 2% haste, but:

+26.5 attack versus 2% haste and 9 STR during melee phase
+50 attack versus +5 str during SA and TA
+50 attack versus one base dmg and haste+2%'s WS frequency for weaponskills.

do the maths and show us your maths skillz.

( I already know you are wrong, I did the maths, just waiting your answer for the lulz).

T
Destroyers beats Mantis. Hades+1 only beats destroyers BARELY and only when acc is uncapped, so dont be too worried about them.

really....? For the hundred's time, the following statements are not incompatible:

-being caped on accuracy.

-needing accuracy gear to cap.

It's always better to put accuracy on the weapon, than the back/ring/earring/neck/range, because destroyer's 6% crits only affect TP phase, and does not apply to kick attacks nor counters. Overall destroyers are only +1.5% above HS+1 if you ignore the 9 acc difference, it is *easilly* beaten by 15 attack ( back) or 2 store TP ( ammo) or 5 STR ( ring).

The lowest accuracy gear a full usukane monk can come with is: full usu + justice torque ( or a stp+2 attack+6 from ACP augments)+ merman's earring+ white thaltum+ cerb. +1. This is a total of about 370 accuracy pre food, with full merits. Therefore:

- if you need 370 acc or less to cap: destroyers
- if you need between 370 and ~400, hades+1 is better because you need acc gear ( meat).
- if you need between ~400 and ~410 destroyers better ( pizza or crab sushi enough to cap with zero acc gear)
- if you need 410+ hades +1 is better.

conclusion: you are wrong too, if you dont wan't to buy HS+1 its fine, but you do not have to claim wrong statements to justify your gear ( also: show us your math skillz for a change, instead of claiming something w/o proof).

[requim]

I'm pretty sure on this whole thing but I want to be 100% positive.

So I'm currently leveling PUP and I was wondering which is better for Endgame PUP: Shenlong or Mythic. I'm thinking they're both situational.

Note that with trial of magians, Kenkoken can get +5 damage. If you're assuming you can get mythic, just include that trial and KKK wins 100%.

Broken down:
Shenlong's is 21/51 10acc 3str 1DA and 3SB, so potentially it could be 22/51.
Kenkoken will for sure end up as a 22/29 with a stringing pummel accuracy bonus

For just the master's meleeing, KKK should beat Shenlong even before considering the aftermath for puppet or the overload rate on. For when the master isn't meleeing (most of end game), KKK obviously wins since Shenlong does nothing for the puppet (fire staff + axe grip is more useful for maneuvers).

[Neosutra]

Where are you getting "BARELY" from? 4.5% hitrate in uncapped acc beats 6% crits (which only apply to DoT) w/o even looking at the 1 DMG increase, lol.

A few reasons:

It isnt "4.5% hit rate vs 6% crit", it's "4.5% hit rate 3/5th of the time (due to focus capping your acc)" vs 6% crit ALL of the time.

So it equates to 3/5*4.5=2.7% hit rate increase (averaged out).

2.7% hit rate increase BARELY beats 6% crit, if at all.

Factor in Pizza and feint and Hades gets worse and worse.

Hades+1 arguments are great for Mnk tanking, situations where you are facing highly evasive mobs and/or chose to eat meat, and for Bonecrafters wanting to make a buc.

And Mdkuser, you need to read, you just restated what I said: When you dont need acc, Destroyers. When you do, Hades+1. However I pointed out the cases where you're needing acc are less and less with mnk, and Destroyers wins in every one of those cases. It isnt "put 9 acc in weapons slot so you can change rings/back/neck", because you can still change your rings/neck/back to attack based pieces even with destroyers 2/5ths of the time, 3/5ths if you work with your thf for feint, and 100% of the time if you're eating pizza.

[Raen Ryong]

Prove it, do the maths instead of claiming something. Just because you're eating pizza does not give you automatically 50 attack. The sushi set up obviously has an advantage of giving a big STR boost: flame ring, and +5STR from sushi, as well as +23.5 attack from back, ammo, ring. Therefore it's not +50 attack versus 2% haste, but:

+26.5 attack versus 2% haste and 9 STR during melee phase
+50 attack versus +5 str during SA and TA
+50 attack versus one base dmg and haste+2%'s WS frequency for weaponskills.

do the maths and show us your maths skillz.

( I already know you are wrong, I did the maths, just waiting your answer for the lulz)

According to wiki, Marinara Pizza is ~+40 accuracy. Sole Sushi is +15% accuracy which'll probably be what, 50 or so (and some minor acc gain from DEX)?

You don't have that much extra accuracy. You can wear 2% extra Haste during melee phase, but not swap out other slots which you cannot normally (note with Feint up both setups can be using Flame Ring etc, and that is potentially 25% of the time).

soloSA and soloTA are 100% accurate, so the +Attack pizza wins.

WS you can use slightly more offensive gear using sushi, but presumably if you are not using sushi from the outset, you are capable of capping without much sacrifice with pizza, meaning the gains are marginal.

EDIT: To make it clear, we're not talking about being at 95% acc sushi and x% acc with pizza, where x is < 95%. We're talking about Pizza setup already being at 95% and then thinking "should we change to sushi and swap Turban for new hat?" etc. I don't see it being worth the tradeoff since with THF's naturally low accuracy, you're not going to overshoot accuracy caps much if at all even with Pizza.

[mdkuser]

According to wiki, Marinara Pizza is ~+40 accuracy. Sole Sushi is +15% accuracy which'll probably be what, 50 or so (and some minor acc gain from DEX)?

You don't have that much extra accuracy. You can wear 2% extra Haste during melee phase, but not swap out other slots which you cannot normally (note with Feint up both setups can be using Flame Ring etc, and that is potentially 25% of the time).

soloSA and soloTA are 100% accurate, so the +Attack pizza wins.

WS you can use slightly more offensive gear using sushi, but presumably if you are not using sushi from the outset, you are capable of capping without much sacrifice with pizza, meaning the gains are marginal.

sole sushi+1 should be 15-20 more acc than pizza ( depends how much acc you wear), meaning you can remove 15 acc from gear. Also pizza does not always give you +40. If sushi gives you +50, pizza gives you +35. I aggree with the argument that sushi+new haste6/acc-10 helm+tiercel is inferior
to turban+love+pizza.

My argument was against the attempts by noodles to justify a haste3/acc?? head and a acc10 dw3 body, when for thief you can make amazing WS items off those. The whole statement of " pizza + mix and match acc/haste" is better than "full haste+ sushi" is wrong.

I'll give you my favorite gear set on Thief:

X/blau/-/bomb core
turban/tiercel/brutal/suppa
rapparee/dusk+1/Flame/rajas
cerb+1/speed/skadi/homam

it's 25% haste gear, total of 340 accuracy and ~400 attack (caped merits) pre food.

pizza makes it ~375 acc 440 attack.

Sole sushi+1 make it 400 attack and 390 acc.

Both have capped haste. it's really hard to beat, and you can have more accuracy by adding more accuracy gear easilly (+20 from ring/ammo/back). So it is indeed the best set up until about 420 accuracy needed. Only after that will it be usefull to give up haste: first with love torque (+8 ), second with homam hands (+4), and you're already at at 432. you have feint for the occasional mob that requires more acc ( MMJ NIN THF..).

also the whole "feint" argument is irrelevant as any set up will use the same feint gear ( ultimate feint gear would be replacing the above gear by the new haste+6 head and the new str+6 necklace).

[Raen Ryong]

Oh, I'll agree with you then; sorry.

[Neosutra]

you take the extra 9 acc that's overkill when focus is up, and throw it into other stats in other slots

As I said:

When you dont need acc, Destroyers. When you do, Hades+1. However I pointed out the cases where you're needing acc are less and less with mnk, especially with Pizza, and Destroyers wins in every one of those cases. You're not taking off full usukane with mnk, so it just limits you to neck/earrings/rings/back slots for change. It isnt "put 9 acc in weapons slot so you can change rings/back/neck", because you can still change your rings/neck/back to attack based pieces even with destroyers 2/5ths of the time, 3/5ths if you work with your thf for feint, and 100% of the time if you're eating pizza.

Furthermore: What the fuck are you going to put in your other slots that will beat 6% crit hit?

Lets say rings slot (thats about a 9-12 acc trade, depending on what you're TPing in). Replacing your rings with Str rings (adding 10 str to your TP set) isnt going to increase your DoT more than 6% crit hit, especially not on mnk which already has a fuck ton of str with just BB/Usukane set.

Neck? What are you going to put in the neck slot to beat 6% crit hit? Nothing.

What about back? You'll already be TPing in Foragers when focus is up and anytime you're using pizza, so what else are you going to trade?

Earrings? 1 slot is locked for brutal. Other is between Aiser earring and Acc+3, and you will already be swapping these based on acc/food/buffs.

Not to mention, keeping the acc elsewhere in your build allows you to swap it out during focus/feint phases, something you CANT do with your weapons slot.

So no, it is FAR better to keep the 6% crit hit on the hands, and make up acc anywhere else IF YOU EVEN NEED IT. Dont fall for the Pchan/Mdkuser soap box (which Im suprised Cream Soda has chosen to join).

It's a poor argument to attempt to label a situationally better peice as "zomg 10x better" when it wins less than half the time and only with certain food/mobs. It's just an argument the people use to justify spending several million on a piece that isnt giving them better output 75% of the time.

In conclusion: The only time you should be wearing Hades+1 is if you're using your acc TP set and STILL not capped on acc and/or are using it for the tanking benefits. If you ever find yourself using it as a replacement for ACC elsewhere in your build, you're wrong.

[Nightfyre]

2.7% hit rate increase BARELY beats 6% crit, if at all.

Barely? Welcome to FFXI... Worst case for the acc (brings you to cap) is a 5% increase in damage. Modifying that using non-optimized sets (no trades from acc-> damage made to capitalize on that acc during Focus or on WS) still gives a (180/300)*.05=3% increase to damage.

Crits don't proc on WS... being generous with TP phase damage (70% of DPS from TP) still cuts it down to 4.2%. Even with a very low base crit rate (5%) you reduce that to 4%. Accuracy beats critrate even in this skewed scenario if TP phase pDIF is above 1.33... backsolving for cRatio yields 1.33/1.025=1.3, or a cRatio of approximately 1.33. Actual value would be lower since you can make trades during Focus and there's also WS to be considered... ok, maybe the trades themselves don't match crit+6%. They still help Hades +1 gain ground. These trades in combination with acc in Focus down up phase do beat Destroyers given otherwise uncapped TP phase acc when Focus is down.

[Neosutra]

Crit bonus is both hands.. And Mnks merit Counter5/5 and KA 5/5.

And to Derock, you're ignoring what Im saying: No other slot's acc trade will net 6% crit hit. If you need the acc, get it elsewhere. You cant use Hades+1 as a trade for other slots acc, there just isnt a better option. If you need the acc ON TOP of using acc elsewhere, then Hades+1 wins. However if you are choosing to trade acc elsewhere for your acc on Hades, you are LOSING efficiency, as NO other slot will offer a similar damage improvement as 6% crit hit.

I'm not arguing with you guys that Hades+1 wins when you need acc. I'm arguing that you shouldnt be using Hades+1 as a tradeoff for using alternative non acc gear elsewhere.

[Nightfyre]

Source doesn't know wtf on crit proc then. Editing, and will edit for G1 merits as well.

[Lonoha]

Is there any chance Aesir Mantle beats Cuchulain's for COR Joyeuse meleeing?

[Neosutra]

I'm not ignoring what you're saying, but you're being dense in trying to prove your point. Let me start again...

HS+1 are going to be better overall when ACC is uncapped while focus is down. This means you should use them if you have them under this circumstance, regardless of anything else.

I believe we both agree on this. Where we seem to disagree is by how much they are better than Destroyers and why. You're putting their increase as only what is given while focus is down, when that is false, because you can put stats into other slots that don't require the acc.

No, you're being a fucking retard.

Let me break this down for you:

In the non acc capped situations, IF YOU ARE USING ACC EVERYWHERE ELSE (rings, back, neck) and still not capped, then Hades+1 wins.

However, if you are REMOVING acc elsewhere (rings, back, neck) due to adding Hades+1 (as Mdkuser, Pchan, and Cream Soda suggest), you are LOSING efficiency. As there is NO item you can put in back, neck, or rings that will beat 6% crit for 9 acc trade.

Unless you can show me a ring combination that will beat 6% crit hit rate, you can shut the fuck up, because YOU'RE being the dense one.

Unless you can show me a back TP piece that will beat 6% crit hit (only acc piece you'll be exchanging here due to hades is Cuc's mantle and thats only 7 acc), you can shut the fuck up, because YOU'RE being dense.

Unless you can show me how trading in a 5str neck piece by being able to swap out your 8-12 acc neck piece will beat 6% crit hit, YOU can shut the fuck up, because YOU'RE being dense.

Unless you can show me how someone who is already using pizza, already capped on acc during focus, and already capped on acc during feint, is going to replace ANY other slot with something that beats 6% crit hit, YOU can shut the fuck up.

The only time Hades+1 is a good alternative is if you are already TPing in acc gear and arent capped (i.e. using meat, evasive mobs, etc). Hades+1 should NEVER be used as a replacement for acc elsewhere. Get that through your skull.

I'm not advocating never using Hades+1, I'm just pointing out removing acc due to using Hades+1 is RETARDED.

[Neosutra]

When did I say they should be used as an ACC replacement in other slots ever?

Here:

I believe we both agree on this. Where we seem to disagree is by how much they are better than Destroyers and why. You're putting their increase as only what is given while focus is down, when that is false, because you can put stats into other slots that don't require the acc.

[Neosutra]

Which we both admit wont compare to destroyers during this time.

Anyways, people can gear themselves, their buffs, their food, and their support based on their playstyle.

If someone is using Hades+1 with an appropriate food/build/buffs/support and ARE NOT removing acc in other places during focus down, then I dont have a problem. Compensating for the loss during focus up is fine as well, but marginally effective.

The only problem I have is when people trade out acc during focus down states, which I hope Mdkuser and others arent suggesting.

Anyways, goodnight. It's late here in Afghanistan, I'll continue this debate tomorrow if anyone chooses, or leave the thread to more productive things.

[Lonoha]

No

Edit: If ACC on Cuchu isn't applicable, Amemet +1 is also better. Joyeuse makes the DA on mantle kind of moot.

Thanks.

[Thorny]

Unless you can show me a back TP piece that will beat 6% crit hit (only acc piece you'll be exchanging here due to hades is Cuc's mantle and thats only 7 acc), you can shut the fuck up, because YOU'RE being dense.

1 base damage and 1 fstr is 3.5% damage on MNK during TP, and about 2.5% during WS. 6% critrate is ~3.7% damage during TP. The attack is bonus.

Unless you can show me how trading in a 5str neck piece by being able to swap out your 8-12 acc neck piece will beat 6% crit hit, YOU can shut the fuck up, because YOU'RE being dense.

5 STR = 1 FSTR, 1 base damage on hades+1 = 1 base damage. Go awai.

Unless you can show me how someone who is already using pizza, already capped on acc during focus, and already capped on acc during feint, is going to replace ANY other slot with something that beats 6% crit hit, YOU can shut the fuck up.

Same goes for ring, Strigoi or Flame = 1 FSTR, hades+1 = 1 base damage. Jesus H Christ.

Bigger Comparison(not entirely complete but it covers what's relevant)

349 / 348 = 0.28% damage from auto-rounds and ws
58/57(4 fstr) = 1.75% auto-damage
~80/79 = 1.26% ws damage(approximate, will vary with how high your mods are during asuran)

at 1.5 pdif, a critical hit is +66.6% damage
say you have 14% critrate before weapons, your base floor + merits, you're looking at:

14% 2.5
86% 1.5
overall 1.64 pdif

Change it to
20% 2.5
80% 1.5
and you get 1.7 pdif

1.7 / 1.64 = 3.65% auto damage

compound
1.0365 * 1.0028 = 3.94% auto damage from destroyers and 0.28% ws damage through quantity

1.75% auto damage and 1.26% ws damage from hades extra 1 base D
Change toreadors->flame on TP and WS and you've just gotten at least one extra fSTR and moved it up to 3.5% auto damage and 2.52% ws damage, easily beating out destroyers.

The only time you should use destroyers over hades+1 is if you're acc capped, fSTR capped, and not close enough to ddex tier to be able to increase critrate through DEX. For example, trading minuet for pixie and toreadors for thunder while at 40 DDEX would get you similar critrate to the destroyers in addition to the extra point of base D. Realistically, even if all prior conditions are met, you're going to have a use for the evasion or subtle blow in a lot of situations.

Hades+1>Destroyers

[noodles355]

Prove it, do the maths instead of claiming something. Just because you're eating pizza does not give you automatically 50 attack. The sushi set up obviously has an advantage of giving a big STR boost: flame ring, and +5STR from sushi, as well as +23.5 attack from back, ammo, ring. Therefore it's not +50 attack versus 2% haste, but:

+26.5 attack versus 2% haste and 9 STR during melee phase
+50 attack versus +5 str during SA and TA
+50 attack versus one base dmg and haste+2%'s WS frequency for weaponskills.

do the maths and show us your maths skillz.

( I already know you are wrong, I did the maths, just waiting your answer for the lulz).



really....? For the hundred's time, the following statements are not incompatible:

-being caped on accuracy.

-needing accuracy gear to cap.

It's always better to put accuracy on the weapon, than the back/ring/earring/neck/range, because destroyer's 6% crits only affect TP phase, and does not apply to kick attacks nor counters. Overall destroyers are only +1.5% above HS+1 if you ignore the 9 acc difference, it is *easilly* beaten by 15 attack ( back) or 2 store TP ( ammo) or 5 STR ( ring).

The lowest accuracy gear a full usukane monk can come with is: full usu + justice torque ( or a stp+2 attack+6 from ACP augments)+ merman's earring+ white thaltum+ cerb. +1. This is a total of about 370 accuracy pre food, with full merits. Therefore:

- if you need 370 acc or less to cap: destroyers
- if you need between 370 and ~400, hades+1 is better because you need acc gear ( meat).
- if you need between ~400 and ~410 destroyers better ( pizza or crab sushi enough to cap with zero acc gear)
- if you need 410+ hades +1 is better.

conclusion: you are wrong too, if you dont wan't to buy HS+1 its fine, but you do not have to claim wrong statements to justify your gear ( also: show us your math skillz for a change, instead of claiming something w/o proof).

Turban/Raparee to Anwig/Mirke is:
+22Acc
+1fStr
+3% DW
-6% Haste

Turban/Raparee + Pizza gives say 85% acc and +sushi is capped. Assume Sole, as you state it above and the fStr is no longer a concern in TP phase, only WS/JAs.
Going from 53-59% Haste is 14.6% increase (Assuming 2 march, haste, velo, desk+1, skadi, homam befor counting head/body).

20 Acc (85 to cap) is 11.8% increase.
3% DW is 3.9% increase (w/ suppa)
Total 15.7%.

1.1% difference, pretty close, as I said.
Factor in feint:
Pizza set swaps in rapparee/turban for an added 10.7% for that 30seconds for 18.4% total boost.
Sushi set swaps in haste+6 hat and haste+1 neck for an extra 5.1% increase for that 30secs and 15.9% total.

Asuming your other gear is staying the same unless mentioned.
I didn't count the 7att you lose from using tiercel necklace, which would lower the sushi result more.
I didn't consider 5Str from sole sushi being available for SA/TA/WS, but then I hadn't considered the 52 Att extra from pizza.
You'll notice I've rounded .5s to favour the sushi build everywhere I could.

MY math is sure as hell rough, but mirke+anwig+pizza looks to have a decent 2% lead over the sushi+rapp+turban setup befor even considering the attack pizza gives you, thus im fairly certain the att from pizza will overcome and shortcomings in my post, and push it even further ahead.

[mdkuser]

so you assume 85% with pizza, 95% with sushi so something that needs 430 accuracy or more to cap. its the same argument as turban versus ace's helm ... you only use it if you don't cap with sushi, same for thf. you're not goign to find situations where you need 430+ acc, where you dont have acc buffs ( no zerg) and where youre there for DD not TH.