What's Better?

[Ang]

Do Lava/Kusha rings have any business in any TP set up ever? Specifically for THF?

TP
Blau/SK/.../BombCore
Walahra/Love/Brutal/Suppa
Rapp.H/Homam/???/???
Forager/Swift/Homam/Homam

My current Ring options are Lava/Kusha/Rajas/Iota ... I don't have Toreador's atm and Sniper's are so bleh ...

1.) Seeing as I'm somewhat low on Acc, would it make sense to TP in Lava/Kusha and WS in Rajas/Iota?

2.) Also, I'm looking to redo the 3 add-ons in favour of THF gear and as such, would it be wise to replace some of my current gear with:
Acc10 Haste3 Head
Acc10 DW3 Body
Acc7 Haste3 Legs ?

[Thorny]

Do Lava/Kusha rings have any business in any TP set up ever?

No.

Specifically for THF?

definitely no

[noodles355]

its the same argument as turban versus ace's helm ... you only use it if you don't cap with sushi,

You're really arguing that if pizza puts you close to cap, but not actually capped that swapping to sushi is better than swapping to ace's...?

Also, wait. Thf is EITHER for dd OR th? What, you can't do both? stop fulltiming TK/AA then.

[Fingerspitz]

Hit 75 SAM last week. What's the best order in which to buy haub +1 (I have an nq of course), hagun, and alkys, and what's the best order in which to get merits? I already capped STP, I'm assuming overwhelm is next followed by meditate? Also, I can now dump a piece of STP gear and keep 5-hit. Do I swap hachi feet for fumas or askar body for (nq) haub? Parsed earlier today and I was getting ~87% acc on birds with crab sushi and no madrigal, and my current setup gives me 16% haste from equip.

[Raen Ryong]

What's the best order in which to buy haub +1 (I have an nq of course), hagun, and alkys

Hagun => Haub +1 => Alky imo.

I already capped STP, I'm assuming overwhelm is next followed by meditate?

Yup. Third Eye over Meditate debatable since Meditate is a minor increase in damage in a fulltime melee situation. Your call.

Do I swap hachi feet for fumas or askar body for (nq) haub? Parsed earlier today and I was getting ~87% acc on birds with crab sushi and no madrigal, and my current setup gives me 16% haste from equip.

Slightly confusing question. Do you mean the debate is between Fumas => Hachi or Haub => Askar? And I assume you mean Polearm by the mention of the 5 hit?

Ie, does this mean that losing the Haub's ~14acc (7%~ hitrate) will put you to 80%? If so, it is better to use Hachiman Feet unless you have extreme haste buffs which will put you -marginally- in favour of Askar.

[xIndustrialxAngelx]

I forget what the math was between the new Magian Moogle katana's.

I saw Mozu + OAT Katana was a good combo,
or OAT + Perdu was a nice choice as well,

but the 3rd set inlcuded the Kuina katana with Str+4 and attk+12? Is the Kuina the better choice over the +7 dmg Mozu? Kuina + Isatu best combo? I'm confused =(

[Furionstormrage]

For Rune Chopper WAR, assuming easier mobs (Einherjar, Dynamis, etc).

Currently have: RC + Turban + Dusk Gloves NQ + Swift Belt + Haidate + Aurum Feet = 28% Haste

Looking at: RC + Askar head or Turban + Dusk Gloves or Askar + Headlong Belt + Hadiate + Aurum Feet or Dusk +1

Basically looking at getting 26% Haste without a Speed/VBelt (KA never puts out when I do have time to camp, which is rare), with the greatest benefit by trading out gear to drop down to 26% Haste.

Since I tend to parse 95-96% ACC in Einherjar, I'm thinking about RC + Askar Head + Dusk Glove NQ + Headlong Belt + Haidate + Aurum Feet. That's maintaining 26% Haste while picking up the attack from the Headlong, and the attack from not wearing a Swift (And STR and DEX from Askar Head), without losing much ACC (3ACC from Swift Belt is mostly negated by the DEX gain from Askar Head)

Am I missing something obvious or does that look right?

Other slots are Bomblet or Bomb Core, Fort Torque, Brutal/Assault, Adaberk, Rajas/Ulths (Toreadors when they drop a little more), Cuch or Foragers. (Ammo and Back depending on mob and Aggressor up or down)

[Fingerspitz]

Hagun => Haub +1 => Alky imo.



Yup. Third Eye over Meditate debatable since Meditate is a minor increase in damage in a fulltime melee situation. Your call.



Slightly confusing question. Do you mean the debate is between Fumas => Hachi or Haub => Askar? And I assume you mean Polearm by the mention of the 5 hit?

Ie, does this mean that losing the Haub's ~14acc (7%~ hitrate) will put you to 80%? If so, it is better to use Hachiman Feet unless you have extreme haste buffs which will put you -marginally- in favour of Askar.

At the moment I used both askar and hachifeet, but since I finished STP merits I can swap or the other. The 87% acc and 16% haste are with the askar and hachi. Sorry if I explained it shittily (and yes this is all with pole).

Thanks for the halp with all the other stuff. Should I use pallas or ochimusha while I wait on cash for alkys (edit: for gkt ws obviously, not pole)?

[Onorgul]

Pallas's Bracelets until you get Alkyoneus's for Great Katana. Pure Attack does little to nothing for Tachi: Gekko compared to the huge gains you'll get from pure STR.

[Raen Ryong]

Well, dealing with just the Haste vs Accuracy for now,

Haub will take you from 87% accuracy to 94% accuracy, which is an increase of 7/87 = +8.05% DoT/WS frequency.

3% Haste on a 16% Haste base:

Hasso/March 2x/Haste = 16 + 45 = 61% => 64%: 3/(100-64) = +8.3% DoT/WS frequency.

Askar then gives you 2% DA (which also increases your WS frequency); when you factor in Zanshin as well (which compensates for accuracy but not for Haste loss), Askar Korazin + Fuma Kyahan is easily the superior choice anywhere you are properly buffed.

Removing buffs:

March 2x/Haste = 16 + 35 = 51% => 54%: 3/(100-54) = +6.52% DoT/WS frequency

At this point, the DA from Korazin again pushes it slightly over the top (along with Zanshin).

Basic conclusion: Askar Korazin + Fuma > Haubergeon + Hachiman anywhere where you have decent haste buffs. If you have literally next to none then Haubergeon will win but this shouldn't happen often, one would hope!

[Khajit]

For Rune Chopper WAR, assuming easier mobs (Einherjar, Dynamis, etc).

Currently have: RC + Turban + Dusk Gloves NQ + Swift Belt + Haidate + Aurum Feet = 28% Haste

Looking at: RC + Askar head or Turban + Dusk Gloves or Askar + Headlong Belt + Hadiate + Aurum Feet or Dusk +1

Basically looking at getting 26% Haste without a Speed/VBelt (KA never puts out when I do have time to camp, which is rare), with the greatest benefit by trading out gear to drop down to 26% Haste.

Since I tend to parse 95-96% ACC in Einherjar, I'm thinking about RC + Askar Head + Dusk Glove NQ + Headlong Belt + Haidate + Aurum Feet. That's maintaining 26% Haste while picking up the attack from the Headlong, and the attack from not wearing a Swift (And STR and DEX from Askar Head), without losing much ACC (3ACC from Swift Belt is mostly negated by the DEX gain from Askar Head)

Am I missing something obvious or does that look right?

Other slots are Bomblet or Bomb Core, Fort Torque, Brutal/Assault, Adaberk, Rajas/Ulths (Toreadors when they drop a little more), Cuch or Foragers. (Ammo and Back depending on mob and Aggressor up or down)

Do some lawl nyzul for askar hands and wear the askar head?

[Fingerspitz]

Well, dealing with just the Haste vs Accuracy for now,

Haub will take you from 87% accuracy to 94% accuracy, which is an increase of 7/87 = +8.05% DoT/WS frequency.

3% Haste on a 16% Haste base:

Hasso/March 2x/Haste = 16 + 45 = 61% => 64%: 3/(100-64) = +8.3% DoT/WS frequency.

Askar then gives you 2% DA (which also increases your WS frequency); when you factor in Zanshin as well (which compensates for accuracy but not for Haste loss), Askar Korazin + Fuma Kyahan is easily the superior choice anywhere you are properly buffed.

Removing buffs:

March 2x/Haste = 16 + 35 = 51% => 54%: 3/(100-54) = +6.52% DoT/WS frequency

At this point, the DA from Korazin again pushes it slightly over the top (along with Zanshin).

Basic conclusion: Askar Korazin + Fuma > Haubergeon + Hachiman anywhere where you have decent haste buffs. If you have literally next to none then Haubergeon will win but this shouldn't happen often, one would hope!

Awesome, thank you.

[Neosutra]

Not to start back up the Hades vs Destroyers argument again, but Thorny:

Arent MNKs already fstr capped during TP most of the time with food/full usukane/BB/rajas?

Arent you already trading in str during focus up regardless of which weapon?

So this comes down to "are you capped in acc", which goes directly back to the conditions I stated.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Thorny]

Arent MNKs already fstr capped during TP most of the time with food/full usukane/BB/rajas?

+32 STR assuming full usu, BB, rajas, and a str+4 back(fair assumption, since cerb+1 and cuch both have this). FSTR cap for a MNK is ~40 STR above mob's VIT with both destroyers and hades+1.. for little pink birds this is 107 STR. For an elvaan MNK/WAR using mithkabobs you'll cap on colibri using those things alone, with 5 STR to spare. For anything else, you aren't capped.

Arent you already trading in str during focus up regardless of which weapon?

Going to depend on target and food, but generally not all of it. Focus is 30 acc 2/5 of the time, optimizing food means you're going to want to have about a 85-88% hitrate with focus down to be worth swapping pizza->meat. Focus will push 85 to a 10 acc excess, and your first swap will always be Cuch->Cerb+1, which doesn't even change your FSTR. For you to be unable to benefit, you'd need to be capped acc without focus essentially as cuch is a 7 acc tradeoff, toreador's is a 7 acc tradeoff, and ancient torque is an 11 acc tradeoff for a total of 25 acc loss swapping things in.

So this comes down to "are you capped in acc", which goes directly back to the conditions I stated.

Capping acc is nowhere near as easy as you seem to think. Consider that MNK is the best tank for a wide variety of things, including T3 VNM, any ZNM, salvage chariots, sky gods(sans byakko), etc. If you don't use your job to the fullest, hades+1 aren't for you anyway, spend the gil on a job you like. These things aside, as mentioned earlier, you aren't capping fSTR on anything except birdies and a lot of races won't even cap on those, especially if forced to sub NIN.

[Thorny]

Pretty sure mnk wouldn't fair too well on genbu either.

depends if he has pdt or just high def but fair enough

i haven't fought genbu with melee in like 2 years

[Neosutra]

1 base damage and 1 fstr is 3.5% damage on MNK during TP, and about 2.5% during WS. 6% critrate is ~3.7% damage during TP. The attack is bonus.

This is my problem really. You're assuming 1 base damage increase and 1 fstr increase due to swapping out which slot? Rings? Neck? While maintaining 95% acc?

If you're at the acc cap, then use destroyers, as we both said.

If you're below 95% acc, you wont be swapping in str pieces during focus down, as the acc in those slots will provide you with more return.

If you're at 95% acc with your current acc build, and swapping Hades+1 in will keep you at 95% acc while swapping another spot in: What spot are you trading that will equal 6% crit hit? We already stated you'll have the same fstr from culc/cerb+1. AT/PCC is 10~11 acc, which you could trade for str torque or faith, but 1base damage and slightly over 1fstr barely beats destroyers. When focus is up you can already make that swap, so it's just 1 base damage vs 6% crit hit. If you're eating pizza and over acc, the point is moot. If you're working with your thf on feint every 2 minutes, the point is moot.


Now let's look at what you're using your mnk for:
Birds? Fstr capped, using meat kabobs so non acc capped.
Salvage? Fstr capped for lower floors, acc capped on early floors, prefer Destroyers. Neither capped without pizza/focus on bosses. I prefer Hades+1 here due to eating meat in salvage and the tanking benefits.
VNMs? Same as salvage, go with Hades+1, though pizza/meat depends on the mob.

It really depends on your event, food, and how you work with your thf. But the base damage and fstr argument alone put Hades+1 marginally ahead -sometimes-, as I said. This dogma of "Hades+1 > Destroyers" when it is true half the time at best is ridiculous.

[Thorny]

This is my problem really. You're assuming 1 base damage increase and 1 fstr increase due to swapping out which slot? Rings? Neck? While maintaining 95% acc?

I'm assuming adding 9 acc on weapon will allow you to swap out 7 acc on ring or 11 acc on neck to gain 1 fSTR, yes. I'm also assuming that hades+1 having 1 more base damage than destroyers isn't a misprint.

If you're at 95% acc with your current acc build, and swapping Hades+1 in will keep you at 95% acc while swapping another spot in: What spot are you trading that will equal 6% crit hit?

The base damage on hades themselves as well as 5 STR will equal 6% crit hit, period. As said, that's either toreadors->flame or AT->justice.

If you're eating pizza and over acc, the point is moot.

If you're eating pizza and enough over acc that you can tp in justice, flame, and cerb+1 you should be eating meat and not over acc.

If you're working with your thf on feint every 2 minutes, the point is moot.

Jesus christ you're desperate. Not all THFs have feint at 2 minutes, not all THFs play the job, not all situations encourage a thf to melee, and I don't know of ANY mnks ocd enough to account for this.

So basically, a shit-fucking-ton of backpedaling and self-justification to not buy hades+1. It's only 'half the time at best' if you're not using the job to anywhere near it's full potential. Looking at your own conclusions:

Birds? Fstr capped, using meat kabobs so non acc capped.
Salvage? Fstr capped for lower floors, acc capped on early floors, prefer Destroyers. Neither capped without pizza/focus on bosses. I prefer Hades+1 here due to eating meat in salvage and the tanking benefits.
VNMs? Same as salvage, go with Hades+1, though pizza/meat depends on the mob

So the only time you'd use destroyers is lower floors in salvage, yet you say they're better than hades+1 half of the time?

[Neosutra]

I use destroyers for a lot more than just first few floors of salvage.

And you're missing the point still:

1. Im not backpedaling to save from buying Hades+1, I have Hades+1 lol.

2. If the 9acc from Hades+1 puts you at EXACTLY 9acc over cap, and you swap out str for the neck slot to equal destroyers, you do just that: Equal destroyers, and only during focus down phase. As when focus is up, you can keep that str neck piece or flame ring on and have the fstr AND the 6% crit hit.

3. If the 9acc from Hades+1 puts you MORE than 9acc over the cap, then you could have swapped the other peices out for str even when using destroyers.

4. If the 9 acc from hades doesnt put you at cap, you shouldnt be swapping acc out anywhere anyways.

5. If you're way over cap with hades and pizza/sushi, you're right: Eat meat. Then we get in the same discussion: You wont be capped on acc during focus down, so you wont be swapping str into acc spots anywhere. I've already advocated Hades+1 in full acc builds and str builds.

6. I use destroyers on pretty much anything that Im not using meat on and is highly evasive/high lvl. Shit is situational and Hades+1 barely beats destroyers SOMETIMES, and a good MNK should know when to use either. And thats not even factoring in a good thf.

[Dathus]

COR WS gear:

Joytoy/x/Martial/Steel
Anwing/Light/Triumph/Drone
AF1/Blood/Rajas/Flame
Amemet+1/Relic/?/AF+1

Commodore Culottes vs Enkidu for Slug/Deto?
Anwing has STR/R.Acc/R.Atk/WS.Acc
Working on getting Skadi hands for WSing in.

Also, besides another Triumph earring, what else should I be looking at obtaining?

[Thorny]

If the 9acc from Hades+1 puts you at EXACTLY 9acc over cap, and you swap out str for the neck slot to equal destroyers, you do just that: Equal destroyers, and only during focus down phase. As when focus is up, you can keep that str neck piece or flame ring on and have the fstr AND the 6% crit hit.

Focus is only up 40% of the time. If you're capped acc with NO accuracy gear that can be switched out during focus, you're looking at:
3.94% auto damage from destroyers and 0.28% ws damage through quantity regardless
Hades, Focus Up:
1.75% auto damage * .4 = 0.7
1.26% ws damage * .4 = .504

Hades, Focus Down, swapping tor->flame and wasting the remaining 2 accuracy:
3.5% auto damage * .6 = 2.1
2.52% ws damage * .6 = 1.512

Hades, Overall:
Auto damage: 2.8%
WS damage: 2.16%

Given the 60/40 split I keep hearing, that would put hades ahead even if you only benefit from the accuracy without focus:
(2.8 * .6) + (2.16 * .4) = 1.68 + .864 = 2.544
(3.94 * .6) + (.28 * .4) = 2.364 + .112 = 2.476

This is all before considering the fact that, god forbid, you might not be accuracy capped when focus is down and you might not have so much extra accuracy that you already tp in all STR gear during focus.

Jesus. H. Fucking. Christ.

Get over yourself, you can't do the math and you're arguing with gut feeling rather than any form of logical thought.