What's Better?

[BrayenMidgard]

Nocturnus for both.

Thanks

hauby+1 still for penta tho right?

[Raen Ryong]

Debatable methinks. I haven't been bothered to do the comparative stats myself, but are you considering 4str = 3atk for the Attack differences between the pieces? I'd probably use Nocturnus for Penta too ...

[BrayenMidgard]

Debatable methinks. I haven't been bothered to do the comparative stats myself, but are you considering 4str = 3atk for the Attack differences between the pieces? I'd probably use Nocturnus for Penta too ...

yeah i accounted for str to atk
run down comes to:
+4str = +1fstr(right?) and whatever the 20%str mod adds
4dex = 3 acc and 4dex for WS mod as well
1%tripleAtk
while hauby+1:
= +9 more atk.

I always heard atk rules on penta but penta has both str and dex mod so really not sure with such minor numbers(i sucks at le math formulas)

[Raen Ryong]

Well I could do the math but Nocturnus is gonna win just about everywhere I would've thought. Even if the +9atk adds more damage (which will be a minor, minor increase), you're still getting more accuracy from the Mail which'll either add consistency or allow you to swap off other slots (potentially).

[StevenW]

After 5 JoJ's with no justice torque ~_~ I finally got to test out a Justice Sword. It doesn't really seem much different than the Joyeuse. I must ask, which is better for a PLD?

Some pros I've seen about each side are:

Justice - Double attack stacks with occ. attack twice, STR+7 results in fSTR gain and thus higher base dmg, .3% more TP per swing
Joyeuse - Frees up ammo / ranged slot, dark resistance

I would say Joyeuse just because it rids me of the liability of having virtue stones 24/7, but I'm not sure. The double attack+occasionally attacks twice stacking is pretty nice, I liked swinging 3x sometimes.

Which one would you prefer for a PLD with Atonement?

[Darkmagi]

I would just use joy personally since your only going to have 5% double attack rate if you use brutal. Also fuck virtue stones.

[Neosutra]

U retard, U cant read U dont know 6hit!
nobody ever talked about usu+sword+fuma

Really?

usukane feet ==> fumas feet ( for hagun)

.

To reach 6 hit with Hagun you need 11 stp with full stp merits. Brutal(1), Rajas(5), and Usukane = 11. He advocated swapping out usu feet for fuma's with Hagun. Adding sword strap -3% reduces your delay, and increases the amount of stp you need for a 6 hit, netting less acc, no 6 hit (unless you use usu body), and less attack. He then came back and said he was arguing Usu feet + Usu body + sword strap, which I wasnt arguing against. My comment was specifically on swapping out Usu feet for Fumas, which is retarded.

And learn to type in english before you try and defend someone that was corrected for giving bad information to someone that should already know how to play their job (seriously, how do you have Sam 75 and not know X hit builds and stp).

Anything else "U" want to add to save your friend?

[jimbobsonofgod]

Pld stuff

dual wield use both, fuck like a champ.

Just kidding on a side note anybody know which is the best staff to drain aspir sleep in these days, wondering if anybody done any testing with the magian vs other shit yet.

[mdkuser]

Spoiler: show

Because the gearsets change somewhat, I'm going to have to rebuild the predicted values. Summary at bottom.

Not going to fully optimize gear swaps since it's a lot of hassle, plus other people will have different gear available.

Target: Level 82 GColibri w/Dia II

Base stats:

Taru Mnk/nin
Str: 67 (w/merits)
Dex: 71
Skill: 292 (282 acc/300 att)

Food: Mithkabobs (5 str/60 att)
Buffs: Haste + 2xMarch

Gear sets (based on my own):

Default/Focus up

Destroyers///Tiphia
Turban/PCC/Brutal/Aesir
ACP(acc/att)/OKote/Rajas/Ulth
Forager/Black/Byakko/Usu

+Str: +20
+Dex: +25
+Att: +65
+Acc: +33
+Crit: +6%
+Haste: +24%

Totals:
Str: 92
Dex: 96
Att: 471
Acc: 393
Boosted Att: 548

Hit rate: 88%
cRatio: 1.247
WS cRatio: 1.508
Crit rate: 18%/12%
Delay/round: 143
fStr: 7


Default/Focus down

Destroyers///Tiphia
Turban/PCC/Brutal/Aesir
ACP(acc/att)/Usu/Rajas/Ulth
Forager/Black/Byakko/Usu

+Str: +20
+Dex: +25
+Att: +45
+Acc: +43
+Crit: +6%
+Haste: +24%


Totals:
Str: 92
Dex: 96
Att: 451
Acc: 373
Boosted Att: 524

Hit rate: 78%
cRatio: 1.179
WS cRatio: 1.426
Crit rate: 18%/12%
Delay/round: 143
fStr: 7


5.5 TP/hit
16 + 2 hits per weaponskill.
2.25 hits/round
8 rounds/weaponskill (before acc)

WSC assumed to be 14

Asuran during Focus: (53 + 7 + 14) * 8.1 * .88 * 1.508 = 795
Asuran without Focus: (53 + 7 + 14) * 8.1 * .78 * 1.426 = 667


Taking a 5 minute sample:

2 minutes (Focus) = 7200 delay

Rounds/WS: 8 / 0.88 = 9.09
9.09 * 143 = 1300
+180 for boost+weaponskill = 1500

WS cycles during Focus: 4.8

Melee hits: 4.8 * 18 = 86.4
93.333% is punch, 6.667% is kick
Punch: 80.64
Kick: 5.76

Punch Avg: (53+7) * 1.243 * .82 + (53+7) * 2.243 * .18 = 85.38
Kick Avg: (35+7) * 1.243 * .88 + (35+7) * 2.243 * .12 = 57.246

Total melee damage: 80.64 * 85.38 + 5.76 * 57.246 = 7,215
Total WS damage: 795 * 4.8 = 3,816

Total damage: 11,031


3 minutes (no Focus) = 10800 delay

Rounds/WS: 8 / 0.78 = 10.26
10.26 * 143 = 1467
+180 for boost+weaponskill = 1,647

WS cycles without Focus: 6.56

Melee hits: 6.56 * 18 = 118.08
93.333% is punch, 6.667% is kick
Punch: 111.21
Kick: 7.87

Punch Avg: (53+7) * 1.175 * .82 + (53+7) * 2.175 * .18 = 81.3
Kick Avg: (35+7) * 1.175 * .88 + (35+7) * 2.175 * .12 = 54.39

Total melee damage: 111.21 * 81.3 + 7.87 * 54.39 = 9,469
Total WS damage: 667 * 6.56 = 4,376

Total damage: 13,845


5 minute damage total: 24,876


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

w/Footwork

Taru Mnk/nin
Str: 67 (w/merits)
Dex: 71
Skill: 292 (282 acc/300 att)

Food: Mithkabobs (5 str/60 att)
Buffs: Haste + 2xMarch

Gear sets (based on my own):

Default/Focus up

Wargs///Tiphia
Turban/PCC/Brutal/Aesir
ACP(acc/att)/OKote/Rajas/Ulth
Forager/Black/Byakko/KKs

+Str: +20
+Dex: +25
+Att: +78
+Acc: +46
+Haste: +22%

Totals:
Str: 92
Dex: 96
Att: 525
Acc: 406
Boosted Att: 604

Hit rate: 94.5%
cRatio: 1.430
WS cRatio: 1.650
Delay/round: 207
fStr: 7


Default/Focus down

Destroyers///Tiphia
Turban/PCC/Brutal/Aesir
ACP(acc/att)/Usu/Rajas/Ulth
Forager/Black/Byakko/Usu

+Str: +20
+Dex: +25
+Att: +58
+Acc: +56
+Haste: +22%


Totals:
Str: 92
Dex: 96
Att: 503
Boosted Att: 579
Acc: 386

Hit rate: 84.5%
cRatio: 1.355
WS cRatio: 1.613
Delay/round: 207
fStr: 7



13.7 TP/hit (fake 7-hit)
5.5 hits per weaponskill.
1.53 hits/round
3.59 rounds/weaponskill (before acc)

WSC assumed to be 14

Asuran during Focus: (52 + 7 + 14) * 8.1 * .945 * 1.650 = 922
Asuran without Focus: (52 + 7 + 14) * 8.1 * .845 * 1.613 = 806


Taking a 5 minute sample:

2 minutes (Focus) = 7200 delay

Rounds/WS: 3.59 / .945 = 3.80
3.80 * 207 = 787
+180 for boost+weaponskill = 967

WS cycles during Focus: 7.45

Melee kicks: 7.45 * 5.5 = 40.95

Kick Avg: (78+7) * 1.430 * .88 + (78+7) * 2.430 * .12 = 131.75

Total melee damage: 131.75 * 40.95 = 5,395
Total WS damage: 922 * 7.45 = 6,869

Total damage: 12,264


3 minutes (no Focus) = 10800 delay

Rounds/WS: 3.59 / 0.845 = 4.25
4.25 * 207 = 880
+180 for boost+weaponskill = 1,060

WS cycles without Focus: 10.19

Melee kicks: 10.19 * 5.5 = 56.07

Kick Avg: (78+7) * 1.355 * .88 + (78+7) * 2.355 * .12 = 125.375

Total melee damage: 56.07 * 125.375 = 7,030
Total WS damage: 806 * 10.19 = 8,213

Total damage: 15,243


5 minute damage total: 27,507


Summary

Total damage with Destroyers: 24,876
Total damage with Wargs+Footwork: 27,507

Wargs+Footwork: 10.6% ahead of Destroyers

Note that Footwork+Wagh Baghs was marginally ahead of Destroyers when compared vs Fumas rather than Usukane feet on merit-type mobs when conditions were less favorable to Destroyers (ie: higher cRatio so crits mattered less, Footwork above attack cap so didn't need to Boost, etc). That this gives us a 10% edge over Destroyers even when comparing vs Usukane feet in an environment more favorable to Destroyers means this is a *very* strong option now.

This doesn't even get into situations like my Salvage experiments where Footwork seems to take a larger lead.

Main problems I see in his maths is: meat build with destroyers and really crappy accuracy ( NQ hades sainti is better for his situation), so he needs to consider a crab sushi build, and then destroyers are better. He uses an average round till 100TP of...9.09, which is completly retarded. Even with his assumptions: 88% accuracy, 5% DA, 15% Kick rate, 13 STP during melee phase, 12 during WS, I've got 8.44, which is 9.09/8.44=+7% WS damage. Also, for whatever reason, he doesn't boost with af gloves... not to mention his super crappy asuran build where he gets a LOWER asuran fist damage with meat build than sushi xD.

Going now through a detailed reading of his maths, and adapting it with better builds:

His destro maths, modified:

Target: Level 82 GColibri w/Dia II:
DEF=294, STRcap=103, acc_cap=407

Base stats:

Mithra Mnk/nin
Str: 70
Dex: 78
VIT:69
Skill: 292+7

Food: crab sushi
Buffs: Haste + 2xMarch

Gear sets optimized for birds :you do not use focus in a crab sushi build

Melee:

Spoiler: show

Destroyers///White thaltum
Usu/faith/Brutal/Aesir
Usu/usu/Rajas/flame
charger/Black/usu/Usu


Str: 103
Dex: 96
Att: +51
Acc: +36
skill:299
Crit: +6%
Haste: 25%

total acc: (200+89+96/2+36)*1.13=421 (cap)
total att=401
fSTR: 10 (cap)
STP+21
5.9 TP/hit


Asuran

Spoiler: show

Destroyers///black thaltum
acp(str+4 att+5 acc +25)/shadow gorget/merman's/Aesir
togi/O kote/Rajas/flame
Forager/Black/usu/Usu


Str: 99
VIT: 69
Dex: 98
Att: +94
Acc: +56
skill:292

total acc: (200+82+98/2+54)*1.13=cap
total att=(8+292+94+99/2)*1.1875=526
fSTR: 9
WSC=floor(floor((99+69)/10)*0.83)=13


Damage per fist using cRATIO instead of pDIF:
with base crit rate of 12% with 29 dDEX, and =6% from destro.

Fist =(35+18+10)*(401/296-0.35+0.18 )=74.63
kicks=(35+0 +10)*(401/296-0.35+0.12)=50.61

Asuran Fists

Asuran=(35+18+9+13)*(526/296-0.35)*8.1*0.95=823.57

Destroyer's DPS:

number of rounds untill 100 TP:
with 95% acc, 15% kick, 5% DA, 21 STP during melee, 12 during asuran: 7.018 ( compared to his 9.09 that's +30% WS damage)
average melee per round:2.1375
number of melee hits till 100TP=2.1375*7.018=15.005


DPS=60*(74.63*15.005*0.9286+50.61*15.005*0.0714+82 3.57)/(7.018*348*(1-0.60))=117.78 damage per seconds, or 35,333 damage in 5 minutes.

we are FAR from his 24k damage in 5 minutes lol... Of course he didn't assume full usukane, nor sushi, but full usukane is not +41% damage, because the only thing it gives is 3 more fstr and 6 store TP. Also full usukane is not the best in this situation I believe crit builds with byakkos, hachiryu hands etc beat it. Just noticed hsi assumption of focus merits instead of kicks ( bad choice of merits..).

going to check his footwork maths later.

edit: Fixed minor errors.

[noodles355]

And lol @ adding anyone that points the flaws in your RETARDED suggestions to your ignore list.

Yeah, he put me on his ignore list after I showed his way of doing store TP for monk was fucking retarded

[CDF]

So, for the people interested in Footwork + Magian OAT:

1) Why assume OAT rate of 33% with Footwork?
2) Why assume the occurrence of regular DA precludes the occurrence of Magian OAT? There still isn't any sound conclusion regarding how DA interacts with OAT in general, much less for the Footwork context
2a) Why assume that, given no regular DA occurs, KA and OAT are mutually exclusive?
3) Why assume Kick Attacks II gives a rate (per round) of 12.5% under Footwork, but 10% for H2H?

[Salodin]

Hauby+1 vs Aurum Body vs Heca body vs KO

for

KJ and RR. thanks.

[Genrye]

Hauby+1 vs Aurum Body vs Heca body vs KO

for

KJ and RR. thanks.

Zahaks for RR bro

[Gabai]

Hauby+1 vs Aurum Body vs Heca body vs KO

for

KJ and RR. thanks.

Zahak's for RR, heca for KJ.

If you don't have Zahak's it depends on what you are fighting, your buffs, acc, and ddex before body.

[Darkmagi]

Only if capped acc. Also don't touch heca on KJ unless 2hring or highly atk buffed. (haub +1 otherwise on both) Edit: for that matter don't touch KJ unless SCing or highly buffed. RR will beat it otherwise.

[Clerix]

Whats better: Wagh or Hades for PUP

[Langly]

How's Shadow Breastplate for KJ comparably to Hauby(+1)/KO/Heca/Ares. Does the 25 attack make or break it?

[BerenTebogo]

Zahak's for RR, heca for KJ.

If you don't have Zahak's it depends on what you are fighting, your buffs, acc, and ddex before body.

This is partially correct.

For birds it is correct, for many situations where your DEX won't be at any relevant number over enemy AGI you should be using ares > byakko type swaps and taking advantage of ATT on haub +1 / ebody over 3% crit rate when you're at a base 8-10% crit rate with merits.

As for KJ: stop using KJ.

Edit for above: Shadow for Aggressor up KJ Ebody for Agg down KJ, but again: Stop using KJ and ESPECIALLY stop using KJ when you don't have aggressor up.

Edit 2: For those wondering why no KJ: This is what it takes on most mobs for KJ to beat RR (assuming of course you have Chaos Roll, Berserk and Dia) http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=115404

Which has an amazing ACC total of 386.5 (with Bravura) without Aggressor. So you can make the argument that in picture perfect scenario using KJ only with zerk and agg up that it is better than RR, but without Aggressor you're stuck using shitfuck gear that won't touch anything but the worst RR sets. And KJ without chaos + berserk won't ever beat RR, again, unless TERRIBLE RR sets.

[Langly]

Still a good WS during Mighty Strikes no? That is our only ideal situation to use it?

[BerenTebogo]

Still a good WS during Mighty Strikes no? That is our only ideal situation to use it?

Yes. Invest in Brave Grip for added lolz.