What's Better?

[Khajit]

I thought you guys had mathed it out so that pole grip beats out brave even during mighty strikes.

[BerenTebogo]

I thought you guys had mathed it out so that pole grip beats out brave even during mighty strikes.

I dunno. I haven't seen those maths. I'm assuming WC though. I get brave adding 94.5 damage at 2700 KJ (should be average for WC MS KJ with good gear / buffs) though, so /harumph, I dunno.

[Mazmaz]

Wait, RR is better than KJ because Sath said so or I missed something?

[Darkmagi]

KJ requires a lot of str gear and atk buffs to beat out RR was his point. The fact that your under acc cap due to having to use more str gear over dex gear which RR would use makes it not very practical.

[BerenTebogo]

KJ requires a lot of str gear and atk buffs to beat out RR was his point. The fact that your under acc cap due to having to use more str gear over dex gear which RR would use makes it not very practical.

Also that's assuming average RR set. My KJ can't beat my RR unless I have pretty much every buff possible + RCB on mobs that aren't birds.

RR is easy winner on birds.

[Dooom]

KJ requires a lot of str gear and atk buffs to beat out RR was his point. The fact that your under acc cap due to having to use more str gear over dex gear which RR would use makes it not very practical.

Fairly sure that by now everyone pretty much knew that KJ is only really practical under berserk/aggressor/high attack buff situations. I only use it when I'm getting crazy buffs (e.g ein where we do brd swaps between pts; 2x brd + cor merit pt) and am confident in my acc (wussy mobs; aggressor up). In the right situations you can get some pretty pimp KJs, but it's so easy to fall into the "trap" of using it in situations which aren't ideal, creating the impression that it's a bad WS.

[BerenTebogo]

Fairly sure that by now everyone pretty much knew that KJ is only really practical under berserk/aggressor/high attack buff situations. I only use it when I'm getting crazy buffs (e.g ein where we do brd swaps between pts; 2x brd + cor merit pt) and am confident in my acc (wussy mobs; aggressor up). In the right situations you can get some pretty pimp KJs, but it's so easy to fall into the "trap" of using it in situations which aren't ideal, creating the impression that it's a bad WS.

Wussy mobs and stuff favors RR over KJ imo. Easily cap DEX:AGI so looking at 24%+ Crit rate on RR depending on gear choices.

A really good RR set is useful everywhere, which is the point imo. Had 10+ WS over 1700 on Mamool using pizza the other day when I merited. Obviously 10 high damage WS isn't proof-positive that RR is A+ but my point is that even in the least ideal scenario (mamool have high AGI so you need to gear away from what you'd use on birds) I can end up with a ~1370 RR average for the party. This is an anecdote, not proof, I don't wanna hear shit about it, lol.

Granted I /wasn't/ using KJ so I can't tell you what my KJ average for the party would have been, but I can tell you straight out that the improvements I can make to my KJ / MT sets can be counted on one hand and completely blow the average WAR KJ set out of the water and I still won't use it outside of zerg.

At the end of the day you have two WS with the same TP modifier at 100TP, a 35% STR vs a 50% STR and a WS that can crit (and if you believe wiki has 10% chance to crit at 100TP (independent of DEX and merits), I'm fairly certain this is unverified) vs. a WS that can't crit.

My KJ has +62 STR before food and hasso vs. my non-bird RR set with +59 STR and +35ish (I'm on DNC right now and too lazy to really check) DEX. After food + hasso, both WS cap fSTR on the majority of shit I do (obviously not non-mage Xarc mobs, etc) so the difference becomes +WSC vs. +crit% and ATT favors RR as much as it favors KJ, RR just doesn't rely on it.

Like I said, busy right now, so I can't do the exact maths out per WS per mob, but it's incredibly hard to make KJ beat RR unless you're only trying to gear for one and not the other.

[miokomioko]

For Monk weaponskills, probably just specifically Dragon Kick, Asuran Fists, and Ascetic's Fury... Which weaponskills shine the best in which situations? (assuming capped-accuracy on anything realistic)

I have just never really used Ascetic's Fury much (it kicks D.Shantotto's ass though) and I started to feel like it did potentially much higher damage than Asuran Fists, just slightly less consistant (probably just a double-attack/crit chance thing).

[Dooom]

Like I said, busy right now, so I can't do the exact maths out per WS per mob, but it's incredibly hard to make KJ beat RR unless you're only trying to gear for one and not the other.

Well, when I say "wussy mobs" I mean stuff like tier mobs in Ein, city dyna, and so on (worth noting that I generally stick to RR, I just use KJ on them if aggressor up or I'm confident in my acc as well as having a silly amount of attack buffs, normally enhanced chaos + 2x minuet). And I'm certainly not trying to do a Starr and begin a KJ vs RR fight, I just average higher KJs than I have RRs under those situations. On dnc atm, but I'll post my gear sets a bit later to make sure I'm not doing something horribly wrong - if it turns out my KJ under berserk aggressor etc. averages higher than my RR under the same mobs/buffs 'cos my RR gear sucks, then fair enough, I'm all for knowing where I can improve.

[mdkuser]

For Monk weaponskills, probably just specifically Dragon Kick, Asuran Fists, and Ascetic's Fury... Which weaponskills shine the best in which situations? (assuming capped-accuracy on anything realistic)

I have just never really used Ascetic's Fury much (it kicks D.Shantotto's ass though) and I started to feel like it did potentially much higher damage than Asuran Fists, just slightly less consistant (probably just a double-attack/crit chance thing).

asuran fists 95% of the time.

ascetic on high def targets

dragon kick: erm... footwork? lol. still need to look at the footwork maths above..

[Dooom]

Isn't howling better on high defence targets, due to it's attack boost? Or does Ascetic's get one too?

[mdkuser]

ive just seen ascetic's fury do 2x more than destroyers consistantly on NM demons in xarcabard and citadel chelonian in salvage. no real research I believe. seems to get attack boost.

[Dooom]

You mean than Howling? Though amusingly, I'd imagine using Destroyers gives Ascetic's a boost Howling etc. wouldn't get.

[Neosutra]

Howling get's the attack boost on WS and is better than Asuran for High Def mobs.

Asuran 95% of the time, Howling for high def mob, Ascetics when you want to see a pretty animation >.>.

DK @ 300 tp, or when /thf.

[miokomioko]

Whats better: Wagh or Hades for PUP

didn't see this answered, but...

wat?

Hades always has DMG:+18, lower delay, buncha acc, subtle blow, etc. PUP generally don't need to be careful about the +enmity part of it. Hades by a long-shot. I'd go for Mantis over Hades though. Free too.

[Limlight]

Only if capped acc. Also don't touch heca on KJ unless 2hring or highly atk buffed. (haub +1 otherwise on both) Edit: for that matter don't touch KJ unless SCing or highly buffed. RR will beat it otherwise.

total agreement about heca for KJ, and KJ when 2houring. Even when highly buffed double minuet etc makes RR just that much better over KJ.

KJ seems, to me at least, to have pretty high acc, so when using pizza I ws in ares body. This isn't from eyeballing but extensive parsing btw.

I use KJ exclusively on mamool thf/nin and t3/t2 ein when i'm not 100% sure about being at crit cap, otherwise get to crit cap and RR away!

Actually I probably should ask about that! What T2/t3 mobs are past 120-125 dex for crit cap? Chigoes and? I've always wondered about bats and some of the skeletons.

Edit: bah missed sath's post. God i'm not awake

[mdkuser]

Spoiler: show

Main problems I see in his maths is: meat build with destroyers and really crappy accuracy ( NQ hades sainti is better for his situation), so he needs to consider a crab sushi build, and then destroyers are better. He uses an average round till 100TP of...9.09, which is completly retarded. Even with his assumptions: 88% accuracy, 5% DA, 15% Kick rate, 13 STP during melee phase, 12 during WS, I've got 8.44, which is 9.09/8.44=+7% WS damage. Also, for whatever reason, he doesn't boost with af gloves... not to mention his super crappy asuran build where he gets a LOWER asuran fist damage with meat build than sushi xD.

Going now through a detailed reading of his maths, and adapting it with better builds:

His destro maths, modified:

Target: Level 82 GColibri w/Dia II:
DEF=294, STRcap=103, acc_cap=407

Base stats:

Mithra Mnk/nin
Str: 70
Dex: 78
VIT:69
Skill: 292+7

Food: crab sushi
Buffs: Haste + 2xMarch

Gear sets optimized for birds :you do not use focus in a crab sushi build

Melee:

Spoiler: show

Destroyers///White thaltum
Usu/faith/Brutal/Aesir
Usu/usu/Rajas/flame
charger/Black/usu/Usu


Str: 103
Dex: 96
Att: +51
Acc: +36
skill:299
Crit: +6%
Haste: 25%

total acc: (200+89+96/2+36)*1.13=421 (cap)
total att=401
fSTR: 10 (cap)
STP+21
5.9 TP/hit


Asuran

Spoiler: show

Destroyers///black thaltum
acp(str+4 att+5 acc +25)/shadow gorget/merman's/Aesir
togi/O kote/Rajas/flame
Forager/Black/usu/Usu


Str: 99
VIT: 69
Dex: 98
Att: +94
Acc: +56
skill:292

total acc: (200+82+98/2+54)*1.13=cap
total att=(8+292+94+99/2)*1.1875=526
fSTR: 9
WSC=floor(floor((99+69)/10)*0.83)=13


Damage per fist using cRATIO instead of pDIF:
with base crit rate of 12% with 29 dDEX, and =6% from destro.

Fist =(35+18+10)*(401/296-0.35+0.18 )=74.63
kicks=(35+0 +10)*(401/296-0.35+0.12)=50.61

Asuran Fists

Asuran=(35+18+9+13)*(526/296-0.35)*8.1*0.95=823.57

Destroyer's DPS:

number of rounds untill 100 TP:
with 95% acc, 15% kick, 5% DA, 21 STP during melee, 12 during asuran: 7.018 ( compared to his 9.09 that's +30% WS damage)
average melee per round:2.1375
number of melee hits till 100TP=2.1375*7.018=15.005


DPS=60*(74.63*15.005*0.9286+50.61*15.005*0.0714+82 3.57)/(7.018*348*(1-0.60))=117.78 damage per seconds, or 35,333 damage in 5 minutes.

we are FAR from his 24k damage in 5 minutes lol... Of course he didn't assume full usukane, nor sushi, but full usukane is not +41% damage, because the only thing it gives is 3 more fstr and 6 store TP. Also full usukane is not the best in this situation I believe crit builds with byakkos, hachiryu hands etc beat it. Just noticed hsi assumption of focus merits instead of kicks ( bad choice of merits..).

going to check his footwork maths later.

edit: Fixed minor errors.

Looking at the maths for footwork with wargfangs now...

Ive seen a real double attack rate of 53% thrown around, I'll use it. Nobody really knows for sure, because as CDF wrote above, it is not clear how double attacks, kick attacks, OAT work together. We still do not know how double attack and OAT work with each other ( we just assume they are independant).

I'm using a crab sushi build with footwork, i think this build is good, maybe someone who thought more about the subject knows better builds.

Spoiler: show

Target is pink birds

STR-cap=103, ACC_cap=407, DEF=296, ATT_cap=592, VIT=67, AGI=67



food= crab sushi


TP build:usukane body's 6 STP dont seem required for 5 hit build as long as you do not completly miss the WS ( so 13.7/hit is enough instead of 14.5).

Spoiler: show

wargfangs/X/X/Black thaltum/
Turban/Tiercel/brutal/aesir/
Osode/ O.kotes/Flame/rajas
Forager/BB/byakkos/kyushu kyahan

mithra MNK/NIN
STR=70+30=100
fSTR=9
DEX=78+31=109 (dDEX=42, base crit rate of 16%)
ACC: +34
AT: +66

Total acc: (200+82+109/2+24)*1.13=406==> 94% hit rate( still better to use osode instead of togi)
Total att: (8+292+66+100/2)*1124/1024=456
fSTR=9
Crit%=16%

Average kick

Kick=(35+18+9+25)*(456/296-0.35+0.16)=117.49

Average asuran fist

With this gear set:

Spoiler: show

Wargfangs/X/X/BT
ACP/gorget/mermans/aesir/
togi/kotes/Flame/rajas/
Foragers/usukane/usukane

already calculated before, except D17 instea od D18:

Asuran=(35+17+9+13)*(526/296-0.35)*8.1*0.95=812.59

Attack rounds.

With the assumption of 53% true DA rate above, 94% accuracy, and 5 hit needed to get 100, we get:

Rounds=3.71 rounds untill 100 TP, starting from 5-8 hits asuran.

attacks per round: 2*0.94^2*0.53+0.94*0.47+2*0.94*0.06*0.53=1.4382

attacks per cycle: 1.4382*3.71=5.33 hits per cycle

Footwork DPS

DPS=(kick damage+ WS damage)/time to get 100TP=
60*(5.33*117.49+812.59)/(3.71*480*(1-0.58 ))=115.42

or

34,626 damage in 5 miutes

Inferior to destroyers, not by a lot. This is also assuming an actual 53% proc rate for double attacks, and "true 5-hit". The moment you miss one of the first two hits on asuran fists it will fall behind even more.


Maybe some one has a better build? Unless I did some terrible mistake somewhere I dont see how warg can be +10%. The mistake in the alla guy's maths is an error in the evaluation of attack rounds needed untill 100TP for destroyers ( he forgets about 15% WS damage), and bad builds for either destroyers or footwork ( meat instead of sushi), and especially bad asuran fist builds ( he doesnt even try to cap accuracy).

[BerenTebogo]

ib4 "not ppoyg thread" Ignore gil, just spent a hefty amount on random shit for RDM / Caiti coupled with not playing much these past two weeks for finals.

KJ + Hasso + Zerk + YCB:

Spoiler: show

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...511_114035.jpg

Non-Colibri RR + Hasso + Zerk + YCB:

Spoiler: show

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...511_114006.jpg

In a perfect world I gain 2STR from vamp earring for both @ night, 1 STR for both from cerb +1, 1 STR 3 ATT from Strigoi ring for both, 1STR 1DEX from heca cap +1 for both and 1STR 1DEX 1ACC 1ATT for RR from Armadaberk.

Then gain 4STR and lose 2% DA for KJ with hachi over ares legs and +2 STR -5ACC -1ATT from Ares body over Shadow body for KJ.

That's absolutely the best any single person can do disregarding like ELV STR or Mithra DEX. So, like I said, KJ is great for with your 2hr up or any time you have 200+ TP for whatever reason (lazy, etc) but average 100TP KJ under berserk shouldn't be beating the average 100TP RR when under berserk.

tl;dr: with perfect gear the maximum your KJ set can have over RR set is +5 STR and ~+15ATT

[Khajit]

To expand on those defense/pdt questions that got raised earlier. Wouldnt that mean that pdt dagger/Genbu's is the superior pdt option for brd?
EDIT: wrong thread. ill find the OP eventually but since it is a what's better thread im still technically in the right place.

found the OP .
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showp...postcount=1361

[Dooom]

Sorry for the time taken to post this, had a very busy day on seemingly every job other than warrior. Time for Ein now though, which means sam/war, which means I can post my sets at last to see why my KJ out-performs my RR, generally.

Spoiler: show

Both SS taken with NQ pizza on, still active from Salvage, normally use YCB for Ein.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7...0511211923.jpg

^ KJ, only used if both bersker/aggressor up and I'm getting lots of attack buffs etc., as stated in previous posts.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3...0511211932.jpg

^ RR, used in other situations. I used to use this with berserk/aggressor up also, expecting that RR > KJ, but after a few ein etc. parses showed my KJ's averaging higher than RR, I started using KJ more. Might seem a bit NQ for the gil I have, but that's being saved for Hachiryu Legs for my samurai, which is pretty much my favourite and most-used job these days. Also, 0/30ish on crafting Heca+1 hands (abj in MH), not started on feet yet,

Again, not looking for some "FITE ME!" style thing, just wondering where I'm going wrong.