What's Better?

[Raen Ryong]

Your pic distracts from the item sets.

[BerenTebogo]

Just got home and took some time to do the maths (I'm no Thorny with the math, bear with me)

Assuming capped PDIF and fSTR and the max beneficial randomizations to give KJ the most optimal conditions (this REQUIRES berserk + chaos roll or meat + dia 2 on birds and pretty much zerk + chaos + meat + dia 3 on mamool, maybe pizza +1 would work, idk):

King's Justice max: 1,452.31
RR 0 crit max: 1,294.5
RR 1 crit max: 1,446.1
RR 2 crit max: 1,597.8
RR 3 crit max: 1,749.3

Now, assuming wiki can be trusted (I haven't personally seen the verification but I haven't seen anything to the contrary either) for RR you have @100TP 10% + 4% + 20% = 34% crit hit rate per hit @dDEX50

My gear puts me between dDEX30-40 for all non-THF or NIN mamool which gives me a 10% + 4% + 8-10% = 22-24% crit hit rate per hit on Mamool BLU / BST / DRG and probably slightly higher on BLM, but whatever.

Now it's safe to assume that for anything I don't need to use Pizza +1 on (with Bravura) my dDEX will range between 35-50. Round off to a happy medium crit % of 26-28% per hit on Raging Rush on the majority of things that aren't Dyn-Xarc / Tav. Which gives ~9% chance for 2 crit and 2.7% chance for 3 crit per RR.

Now what does this all mean? On average KJ under perfect conditions and RR (1 crit) under the same conditions will be within +/- ~3% of each other. RR will dip lower with the occasional 0 crit and spike higher with the occasional 2x crit and blow KJ out of the water with the rarer 3x crit.

I believe I did make a mistake by adding gorget bonus to all hits of each WS, but it was a mistake I made universally so it shouldn't change the outcome.

This is also discounting any DA on either weaponskill since assuming Ares legs for both the DA% will be the same for both.

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What this means for you as a WAR: the choice to use KJ when Aggressor + Berserk + Chaos roll + Meat or Dia or both are up is yours. It's a semi-valid one. However, over the course of a party, looking only at Berserk + Aggressor up values, RR should pull ahead with a higher average because the spread of 2-3x crit hits will be higher than the spread of 0 crit hits (1 crit hit being = to KJ) assuming we're using my gear for these maths.

As I said, I'm no super mathologist, I'm a mathologist in training. So if there are errors with my maths or conclusions feel free to correct them, but under ideal conditions I think I nailed it.

[BerenTebogo]

As for Dooom, and why your KJ out performs your RR: I'd say it's probably due to confirmation bias. Unless you're parsing everything you do you end up looking at RR under the light of berserk up /and/ down while only comparing it to KJ with berserk and ATT buffs up.

But also your KJ has 10STR more than your RR whereas mine only has 3STR more. It's not a huge difference but it is a factor.

[Dooom]

As for Dooom, and why your KJ out performs your RR: I'd say it's probably due to confirmation bias. Unless you're parsing everything you do you end up looking at RR under the light of berserk up /and/ down while only comparing it to KJ with berserk and ATT buffs up.

Looking at it now, this probably has a lot to do with it. It doesn't help that the main thing I do on warrior is Ein (I merit once in a blue moon), which isn't good for comparative parsing 'cos of the differences in mobs you get. Though yeah, I do feel a bit happier with my KJ set than my RR one. I'm still a few drops away from e-body I think (about 3rd in line by my counting), which will help my RR set out (under the conditions I use the WS, the str on N-body helps more than the attack on heca+1, e-body would "level the field" a bit between the sets). Really not sure what else I could work on other than the obvious HQing on Heca, Cerb+1, and Ares legs.

[Limlight]

Sorry for the time taken to post this, had a very busy day on seemingly every job other than warrior. Time for Ein now though, which means sam/war, which means I can post my sets at last to see why my KJ out-performs my RR, generally.

Spoiler: show

Both SS taken with NQ pizza on, still active from Salvage, normally use YCB for Ein.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7...0511211923.jpg

^ KJ, only used if both bersker/aggressor up and I'm getting lots of attack buffs etc., as stated in previous posts.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3...0511211932.jpg

^ RR, used in other situations. I used to use this with berserk/aggressor up also, expecting that RR > KJ, but after a few ein etc. parses showed my KJ's averaging higher than RR, I started using KJ more. Might seem a bit NQ for the gil I have, but that's being saved for Hachiryu Legs for my samurai, which is pretty much my favourite and most-used job these days. Also, 0/30ish on crafting Heca+1 hands (abj in MH), not started on feet yet,

Again, not looking for some "FITE ME!" style thing, just wondering where I'm going wrong.

ein is a bad place to test this. I may be wrong but to my knowledge mob agi/eva values are not universally known like birds/mamool. In ein I almost exclusively use KJ over RR because of what I previously stated. Because over the nearly year of doing ein and parsing literally every run. KJ has always outperformed RR for me in ein (t2/t3. T1 runs RR is pretty even). But at birds/non nin/thf mamool (again i'm a parse nut) RR consistently beats KJ in average ws every time. My sets are like your own. 118 for birds 120ish for mamool with as much str as I can get in while maintaining crit cap (Elvaan here so I have to go a little nuts on dex+ gear). You're doing it right dooom (btw maybe haub+1 over heca body? moar attack etc is nice. I use ares body/legs with KJ. Don't have hachi pants or i'd use those).

I go absolutely nuts on str/attack on KJ (even use alky's) so my +str is way above my RR set (again being elvaan i have to go nuts on dex+ gear to maintain 120ish dex for rr).

[BerenTebogo]

Looking at it now, this probably has a lot to do with it. It doesn't help that the main thing I do on warrior is Ein (I merit once in a blue moon), which isn't good for comparative parsing 'cos of the differences in mobs you get. Though yeah, I do feel a bit happier with my KJ set than my RR one. I'm still a few drops away from e-body I think (about 3rd in line by my counting), which will help my RR set out (under the conditions I use the WS, the str on N-body helps more than the attack on heca+1, e-body would "level the field" a bit between the sets). Really not sure what else I could work on other than the obvious HQing on Heca, Cerb+1, and Ares legs.

You're mithra, which favors RR way more than KJ. As you improve your RR set (ebody, heca +1 hands / feet, ares legs. nhead) you'll be looking at +16 more STR in your RR set while still keeping 116 DEX. This gives you a huge advantage for RR also on things that aren't birds as well.

Like your sig says, the math is pretty much what you should be aiming for. How and if you get there is dependent on a huge number of variables, one of which is gear for you. Eyeballing KJ vs. RR, even under the best conditions, will never get you anywhere. Make judgment calls based on mobs / buffs / experience and it'll all come together nicely in time.

@above: For the same reason Dooom SHOULD be using RR, as an Elvaan you have more of an excuse NOT to use RR. I couldn't make KJ beat RR for me in any tier of Ein without leaving half of my gear in my satchel, but your DEX values are probably 10 or more lower than mine on my STR focused RR set, and your total KJ STR may even be higher than mine because of base STR.

Edit: Poor mithra I just compared STR totals in my KJ vs. Mithra KJ and you have 22 less STR (although pizza + no hasso). That fucking sucks, lol. I wish I had ELV base STR without being ELV though, fuck.

[Thorny]

A critical hit at capped pdif is 35% damage increase on average for that hit. If you're really at capped attack, KJ shits all over RR. If you're not, it doesn't. Simple.

[Limlight]

KJ

82+71 str (with hasso no food) in my kj set

439 acc with pizza/hasso and no aggressor. for mmjs/ein (I always use pizza for ein/mmjs which is why I included it here)

I switch to haub+1 over ares when aggressor is down for KJ


RR set up

Str: 82+49 (with hasso up)

Dex: 65 +55

Acc: 423 with hasso no aggressor

Attack: 436 no buffs/food

generally do the usual spam meat kabobs get double march, chaos/cor rolls

Wanted to spell out my situations and why I said what I said in my previous post (not that anyone really cares but still! its there)

[BerenTebogo]

A critical hit at capped pdif is 35% damage increase on average for that hit. If you're really at capped attack, KJ shits all over RR. If you're not, it doesn't. Simple.

I must be missing how you're getting from point A to point B. Assuming capped fSTR you're saying the 35% damage increase for the hit in question is negated by 15% more of your STR being calculated into the WSC?

Not that I'm disagreeing with this, just making sure I understand.

[Dooom]

maybe haub+1 over heca body?

This is one choice I keep going back-and-forth on. Just swapping N-body to Haub+1 is a difference of 8 attack, but 6 str. On a WS with a 50% str mod, and when I'm already sitting at 800ish attack or so, I'm confident that the str will do more for me. I'd also use Hachi legs on KJ once I get them (anyone on Phoenix reading this, sell me a pair at 15mil or so? As you can see I have the money!).

My dnc just dinged 75, so needs some merits. I'll flag up on warrior sometime I think and try to compare myself at bird camp. This conversation has got me excited about warrior again lol, when I was starting to get a bit hum-hum about it.

Like your sig says, the math is pretty much what you should be aiming for. How and if you get there is dependent on a huge number of variables, one of which is gear for you. Eyeballing KJ vs. RR, even under the best conditions, will never get you anywhere. Make judgment calls based on mobs / buffs / experience and it'll all come together nicely in time.

Absolutely; I won't pretend to be anything more than slightly above average at best at this game, but I'm always happen to learn how I might improve, and to get closer to that "mathematical peak". It's why I put the quote in my sig in the first place, I thought it summed up a lot of the best bits of BG pretty well - "here is what is possible, and here are ways to help you reach that level".

I wish I had ELV base STR without being ELV though, fuck.

haha, totally! I couldn't imagine not being a mithra though, I'll gladly trade in some base str for dex and an ass I can look at while playing!

[Thorny]

I must be missing how you're getting from point A to point B. Assuming capped fSTR you're saying the 35% damage increase for the hit in question is negated by 15% more of your STR being calculated into the WSC?

Not that I'm disagreeing with this, just making sure I understand.

130 str vs 120 str

130 * .5 = 65 WSC

120 * .35 = 42 WSC

96 + 18(fstr) = 114 base d

114 + 65 = 179

96 + 18 + 42 = 156

179 / 156 = 14.7% damage

14.7 / 35 = .42

you'd need over 42% critrate for RR to beat KJ with capped pdif in doom's setup, as your gear gets better you gain more STR in KJ over RR since byakkos vs hachiryu is a given as are a couple other pieces

if you aren't true capped for pdif then there's no reason to even consider KJ outside of mighty strikes though.. reason being crit pdif caps less than 1.0 above noncrit pdif and as you get closer to cap you lose out on a lot of the benefit of critical hits

[Limlight]

82 base str is pretty sexy (65 dex fffffffffffffffff)

[BerenTebogo]

Part 2 for Thorny because maybe you can tell me where I'm making the error here:

For the math I used I have WD*PDIF, where WD adds up to 185.11295 per hit for RR * 2.331 (the PDIF I got after level correction and generous randomizations)

Now WD*PDIF gets me 431.4982 per hit. Assuming 35% increase on 1 hit I have 431.4982 *2 + 582.5226 which = 1,445.52 for RR with 1 crit at capped PDIF.

For KJ at capped PDIF I have 1,452.31

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I dunno.

Edit: Okay, you used Doom's gear. For mine my KJ STR total is /3/ more than my RR total (using alky's, shadow body, warrior's stone, etc), both using Ares' legs. I'm curious if 4STR 5ATT beats 2% DA for KJ? DA math I can't do. This is with ~26% crit hit rate for my RR, assuming obviously not Dyn-Xarc/Tav mobs.

[Motenten]

Also, for whatever reason, he doesn't boost with af gloves.

Not sure on the rest of the stuff (need more time to read it over), but the data does use AF glove boost. Boost is applied to base attack from skill/gear/str, but not from Berserk/Footwork/Food attack (str from food counts in the first portion)/etc. Therefore Boost doesn't simply raise the given standard attack value by 18.75% if that attack value includes any of the latter, and needs to be calculated separately.

[Thorny]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by non-colibri RR? You're certainly not getting capped DDEX on anything else in that set, you give up practically all of your DEX..

[BerenTebogo]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by non-colibri RR? You're certainly not getting capped DDEX on anything else in that set, you give up practically all of your DEX..

RR with Ares legs puts me at 108, and I can't really make /any/ other adjustments or improvements to RR except maybe using Alky's on RR for anything that I can't cap dDEX on (and HQ heca cap / armadaberk / strigoi ring, etc), but that seems horribly silly.

As I understand it even being in dDEX30-40 range should give you an 8-10% crit hit rate based on DEX values alone, which after merits and nature of RR should give you 22-24% rate per hit. Switching Alky's in for Heca +1 loses 12 DEX which drops down to ~5-7% by DEX range for an increase in 3 STR.

Basically my "colibri RR" is anything where I can cap dDEX by using Haidate and STR1 DEX2 Atilla's and anything else is Ares legs.

Edit: I'm using this chart:

Spoiler: show

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...%28dDEX%29.jpg

[Khajit]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by non-colibri RR? You're certainly not getting capped DDEX on anything else in that set, you give up practically all of your DEX..

Thats the point thorny. Vs anything non colibri chances are that your dex isnt 50 above the mobs agi vs anything important and before that it's every 10dex=1 crit so you're better off working on the str mod as well as atk.

[BerenTebogo]

Still curious about 6STR 2%DA vs. 10STR 5ATT for KJ too. I really have no idea how to go about doing DA on WS math.

[Thorny]

Suppose I'm biased since most practical WAR debate I have is with FG, who's mithra with DEX merits. It makes more sense looking at it that way, but you still need a pretty significant critrate for RR to beat KJ at capped pdif. I'll run numbers for your specific setup later, but there's no reason for dooom to be using RR with full buffs.

[BerenTebogo]

A critical hit at capped pdif is 35% damage increase on average for that hit. If you're really at capped attack, KJ shits all over RR. If you're not, it doesn't. Simple.

Until Thorny comes back and gets a bit deeper into the math of critical hit distribution and other stuff I'm going to attempt to make this a bit more user friendly since who the hell besides Thorny, Raen, and Pchan really know what "capped attack" is.

Assuming capped ratio of 2.25 ATT: DEF what are you really looking at in terms of KJ? Well, berserk + hasso + ycb for me is 670 ATT and 152 STR. Looking at a Mamool Ja Infiltrator we have an upper bound of 350 DEF. To get 2.25 (I got this from Kirschy, even though she said she aims for 2.5) ratio over 350 DEF you need one of two scenarios:

1) 787.5 ATT
2) Dia 2 before WS => 708.75 ATT

Not horrible. Any half-decent RDM and COR should be able to keep you at scenario 2 all the time. What if you're in a pick-up party and your RDM fucking sucks? Well, without a DRK in party or AF2 hat proc you need a 4, 10, or 11 roll to cap. Not terrible assuming the COR doesn't fucking suck.

If you cannot meet either scenario 1 or 2, even Thorny agrees, do not use KJ, ever.

What about pickup parties on birds? 327 upper bound of DEF.

1)735.75 ATT
2) Dia 2 before WS => 661.5 ATT

Should your RR set not be top-notch you can easily meet scenario 1 or 2 with even the shittiest of COR and RDMs (although factor in 25 less attack from kabob instead of YCB)

Now for the important stuff. Dynamis and Einherjar. Given that in Dynamis mob difficulty (stats? not a pro with this) increase as you progress through the zone it comes down to a more logistical approach to the question.

1) Can your RDMs or WHMs apply Dia 2 to every MNK, NIN, WAR, SAM, PLD for 2+ hours?
2) Do you have a COR who doesn't suck? Preferably with a DRK in the party?
3) In the short time mobs live with 15 DD on them in Einherjar are your mages casting Dia?
4) Are they casting Dia before you WS? Or are they casting Dia at 30%?
5) Is your T3 wave squishy flayers or is it Wivres?

As you move away from merit parties the uncertainty of when to use KJ or not becomes more pronounced, and honestly, becomes less about you and more about your support.

To re-quote Thorny, who has a better understanding of this than me:

A critical hit at capped pdif is 35% damage increase on average for that hit. If you're really at capped attack, KJ shits all over RR. If you're not, it doesn't. Simple.

Using KJ before Dia 2, using KJ with a shitty roll, using KJ on the wrong mob-type (if you ever use KJ on a Kindred PLD I will find you and beat you) all drastically reduce the effectiveness.

In my case (gear-wise) I'm lucky that the difference between RR and KJ is a lot more clear-cut. The biggest benefit and one of the reasons I most strongly advocate RR over KJ is that the only scenarios you need to qualify to use RR are:

1) Is the mob alive?
2) Do you have 100 TP?

When the difference between KJ and RR on average is ~3-5% max (I'm waiting for someone to point out errors in my math on my gear. If there are some I'll change this) and not fulfilling a single caveat can drastically reduce the effectiveness of KJ, coupled with averaging in the less frequent multi-crit RRs, the benefit of KJ disappears.

Tl;dr? Comes down to what it always comes down to. Use your head. The information is here, but only you can judge the situations you're going to be in and the people you're going to be relying on.