What's Better?

[Chen]

going to kill faster with marchx2, but will be slower/safer fight with march/min (assuming you're capping utsu recast with single march, you should be.)

[Xera]

going to kill faster with marchx2, but will be slower/safer fight with march/min (assuming you're capping utsu recast with single march, you should be.)

What I thought, thanks. :D

[FailureMidgard]

madness, i always thought lower base damage made you hit for 0's more

themoreyouknow.jpg etc

thanks

It can make you hit for 0 more.

Damage = floor([D+fSTR]*pdif)
If damage is 0, then that means 1>[D+fSTR]*pdif
1/pdif > [D+fSTR]

Now, I'm not entirely sure on exact pdifs and such when people are having issues hitting for 0, but saying weapon damage doesn't matter is a complete falsehood. Generally, pdif is the bigger culprit, but they both matter in the relationship given above.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I don't think anybody has ever been of the mind that it doesn't matter, people usually just point out that if you're hitting for zero, its because you're not getting appropriate attack buffs.

[Khajit]

going to kill faster with marchx2, but will be slower/safer fight with march/min (assuming you're capping utsu recast with single march, you should be.)

he has a bloody cor in the pt. The thing will be lucky to ws more than 3 times in the first place. Stop trying to gimp the guy's salvage group. Not to mention that there's at LEAST one mnk in the group so pennance will be on the mob half the time. You're trying to limit tp on what should be an already highly crippled monster.

[Deelo]

he has a bloody cor in the pt. The thing will be lucky to ws more than 3 times in the first place. Stop trying to gimp the guy's salvage group. Not to mention that there's at LEAST one mnk in the group so pennance will be on the mob half the time. You're trying to limit tp on what should be an already highly crippled monster.

why do you hate cors so much? =P

[Neosutra]

Yep, mnks roll + chaos roll, with double marches = sex.

And Failure: No shit. We are pointing out the obvious "add more attack to player or more -def to boss and hit for non 0 regardless of base damage". Keep dia3, box steps, and a rotation of blu def spells and angon = no 0s (and 5 min JoL).

[FailureMidgard]

I don't think anybody has ever been of the mind that it doesn't matter, people usually just point out that if you're hitting for zero, its because you're not getting appropriate attack buffs.

But there is a direct relationship between the 2....

If you have 40 damage, then 40*pdif = 1, or pdif = .025 is where you hit for 0. If you have 80 damage, then 80*pdif = 1, or pdif = .0125. Doubling your attack is the -exact- same as doubling your D+fSTR...getting a 20% increase in attack is the same as getting a 20% increase in D+fSTR, the only debate is how reasonable these are, which really depends what weapon you are using, what job you are, and what buffs you have available.

[Neosutra]

Right, and non zero producing pDif values are easily attainable with proper buffs/debuffs, hence the facepalm when people make base damage comments. It's not like you need SV double minuets and COR roll to hit for non 0.

[TybudX]

But you're only swinging for 8 damage! Joyeuse must be better!

[Yugl]

Right, and non zero producing pDif values are easily attainable with proper buffs/debuffs, hence the facepalm when people make base damage comments. It's not like you need SV double minuets and COR roll to hit for non 0.

Why would you insult people for using high base damage as a means of bypassing zero damage though? Perhaps their LS is unable to afford the DDs proper buffs or they're that one DD that gets left without buffs (I can easily see LSs leaving DRGs out of the buffed PT for other DDs such as SAM). Don't even think about throwing the gimp card at their LS either since you're the one upgrading Burtang.

[Darkmagi]

I was under the impression angon overwrote blus -def spells, yes? Thought they were considered the same as acid bolts.

[Yugl]

I was under the impression angon overwrote blus -def spells, yes? Thought they were considered the same as acid bolts.

BLU spells actually block angon despite angon's higher DEF reduction value.

[Motenten]

Failure: While you're technically correct, you're not understanding the actual point of such a formula.

0.0125 or 0.0250 pDiff is the point where you start hitting for 0 for the given weapon damage values, yes. However pDiff is a range, not a point value. You're hitting for 0 because your pDiff is between, say, -0.3 and +0.5. Everything from -0.3 to +0.025 (for the 40 dmg weapon) or -0.3 and +0.0125 (for the 80 dmg weapon) will be hitting for 0. In that case, the 40 dmg weapon is hitting for zero 41% of the time, while the 80 dmg weapon is hitting for zero 39% of the time (note: this is not the actual distribution pattern, just an example).

The difference in attack needed to shift between those two pDiff values is slightly over 4 on a mob with 350 defense. Doubling the base damage of your weapon to get the equivalent reduction in the number of times you hit for 0 as you'd get from adding 4 attack is just silly.

[BrayenMidgard]

BLU spells actually block angon despite angon's higher DEF reduction value.

just curious but where does acid bolt go in terms of which takes effect / overrides?

[Yugl]

just curious but where does acid bolt go in terms of which takes effect / overrides?

I believe it overrides bolts. It's not too certain though.

[noodles355]

Why would you insult people for using high base damage as a means of bypassing zero damage though? Perhaps their LS is unable to afford the DDs proper buffs or they're that one DD that gets left without buffs (I can easily see LSs leaving DRGs out of the buffed PT for other DDs such as SAM).

Just to build on this point quickly, Thief is a prime example, having low attack to start with, and almost always without buffs on things you'd hit for 0 on.

(inb4 "thf dmg doesn't matter, you're only there for feint and TH")

[mcb]

Not really enough information there to judge. WAR gets Hauberk/Haubergeon for TP/WS, MNK gets Shura, THF gets Homam/Dragon Harness/Antares Harness. You could use the ACP body to shore up your weakest piece on those 3 jobs, or you could save it for a future job like I did.

e.body for war
shura for mnk
rapp/homan/dragon for thf

i guess i'm leaning toward duel wield/acc for thf but that looks slower than rapp and slightly less acc than homan.

[FailureMidgard]

Failure: While you're technically correct, you're not understanding the actual point of such a formula.

0.0125 or 0.0250 pDiff is the point where you start hitting for 0 for the given weapon damage values, yes. However pDiff is a range, not a point value. You're hitting for 0 because your pDiff is between, say, -0.3 and +0.5. Everything from -0.3 to +0.025 (for the 40 dmg weapon) or -0.3 and +0.0125 (for the 80 dmg weapon) will be hitting for 0. In that case, the 40 dmg weapon is hitting for zero 41% of the time, while the 80 dmg weapon is hitting for zero 39% of the time (note: this is not the actual distribution pattern, just an example).

The difference in attack needed to shift between those two pDiff values is slightly over 4 on a mob with 350 defense. Doubling the base damage of your weapon to get the equivalent reduction in the number of times you hit for 0 as you'd get from adding 4 attack is just silly.

First off, I understand all this, it's just dumb to flame people for saying a higher base dmg weapon will hit for 0 less often. In a realistic situation that you are hitting for 0 on, you're likely going to be 200+ attack short. Unless you can miraculously change the way your LS runs shit (BTW, I didn't have this issue, we had brd+cor almost always if we had melee), you -will- have issues hitting for 0, and doing so 2% less often is not something that should just be tossed out the window and ignored. If shit is so bad that half of your hits are hitting for 0, that's a 4% increase in TP gain, and it only goes up from there.
Don't get me wrong, in an ideal situation, it's not a worthwhile thing to think about, but in some less than ideal situations that people find themselves in, it is worth mentioning and considering.

[Marquiss]

Before I buy a KO whats better to WS in, Hauby +1 or Domaru?