What's Better?

[Byrthnoth]

So...

I'm wondering about making a DNC WS build (Don't laugh!) for Dancing Edge.

It sucks no one knows how much ACC Building Flourish adds though, as it would help immensely with gearing (WSing without Building Flourish is really annoying).

But never the less!

This is what I have so far, assuming crab sushi of course and /NIN:

*WS gear list*

=( Any huge improvements needed? Thanks very much.

There are a lot of ways that you could improve that build, but depending upon the access that you have in game many of them may not be viable. You could aim for:

Main: Magian Acc/Dex dagger
Offhand: Magian DA DMG+ dagger
Ammo: Tiphia Sting (Brack Tathlum, Smart Grenade*)
Head: O-hat (Gnadbhod's Helm*, WS Acc Anwig Salade)
Neck: WS Gorget (Love Torque)
Ear1: Merman's earring (Aesir Ear Pendant)
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body: Enkidu's Harness
Hands: Enkidu Mittens (~Barbarian Mittens*)
Ring1: Woodsman (Toreador's, Triumph*)
Ring2: Rajas
Back: Forager's (Cuchulain's/Etoile)
Waist: Virtuoso belt (Warwolf belt*)
Legs: Surge Subligar
Feet: Denali Gamashes

Harder to obtain/special case items are in ()s, *ed are for when you have more accuracy than you need. Of all the upgrades I've listed, getting Sea/Rajas/Brutal/WS Gorgets are what would help you the most. The other upgrades are either nearly-unjustifiably time intensive or minor.

[Innuendo]

Got a question from a PLD friend of mine. For Flash he wants to know if he should focus on haste and fast cast to shorten the recast and flash more often, or if he should focus on enmity to make the flash more effective. I think I got his question right.

Thoughts?

There's a good analysis of this at http://tuufless.blogspot.com/ though if you can't be bothered reading it:

If the sum of your +Enmity and +Haste is greater than 0, you will gain more by increasing +Haste over +Enmity.
Otherwise, if the sum of your +Enmity and +Haste is less than 0, you will gain more by increasing +Enmity over +Haste.

Since the vast majority of Paladins out there (hopefully) have a positive sum of +Enmity and +haste, this analysis shows that you will benefit from increasing +Haste over +Enmity the vast majority of the time.

[Rionel]

Test it yourself? Calculate your melee Acc%.(preferably against something that will brnig it down pretty low)Use Poison Sting x-number of times with Building Flourish, count the frequency of landing your offhand hit to determine your adjusted melee Acc%. Adjusted Acc-initial Acc=increase.

I suppose doing at least 600~1000 of these would be able to find a close-accurate answer.

Is there perhaps a way to parse this, or would old fashioned paper pen would have to be the way? I would very much be interested in testing this.

Would testing the attack and critical increase of Building Flourish follow the same method? Just wondering.

Main: Magian Acc/Dex dagger
Offhand: Magian DA DMG+ dagger
Ammo: Tiphia Sting (Brack Tathlum, Smart Grenade*)
Head: O-hat (Gnadbhod's Helm*, WS Acc Anwig Salade)
Neck: WS Gorget (Love Torque)
Ear1: Merman's earring (Aesir Ear Pendant)
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body: Enkidu's Harness
Hands: Enkidu Mittens (~Barbarian Mittens*) <= Stupid -6CHR on Tarasque Mitts+1 >_>;
Ring1: Woodsman (Toreador's, Triumph*)
Ring2: Rajas
Back: Forager's (Cuchulain's/Etoile)
Waist: Virtuoso belt (Warwolf belt*)
Legs: Surge Subligar
Feet: Denali Gamashes

Yes, I have a Magian Dagger sitting in my Mog Safe =( Need the 10 Eyes now but Verthandi is kind of a bitch to low man for average geared peeps... unless I need too look around somemore!

I don't have much excuse for not having the ACC+8 Magian Dagger though. That's a must have surely.

[StevenW]

Got a question from a PLD friend of mine. For Flash he wants to know if he should focus on haste and fast cast to shorten the recast and flash more often, or if he should focus on enmity to make the flash more effective. I think I got his question right.

Thoughts?

Coincidentally I was discussing this with other PLD's in my LS last night. I'm glad you asked.

[Marcicus]

Ideal COR/WAR Joyeuse TP and RA sets?

Joyeuse/---/Martial Gun/Steel Bullets
Walahra Turban/Ancient Torque/Brutal Earring, Suppanomimi, or Hollow Earring? Not sure
Cobra Unit Harness/Dusk Gloves+1/Rajas Ring/7acc Ring
Cuchulain's Mantle/Velocious Belt/ASA Legs with 7acc 3% Haste/Dusk Feet+1

Mekki Shakki/Rose Strap/Magian OAT Gun(?)/Steel Bullets
Quadav SCNM Helm/Peacock Charm/Triumph Earring x2
-----/Blood Finger Gauntlets/Rajas Ring/Behemoth Ring+1
Amemet Mantle+1/Commodore Belt/Skadi Chausses/Corsair's Bottes+1

Just doing this off the top of my head here, so I know something's wrong. Probably a lot. Reason I kept the body piece in the RA setup blank is because most people are gonna get QD-5 MAB+4 augment on their ACP body, so maybe Skadi Body? And I am sure I am overshooting the sTP needed to 5hit on COR too.

Also, asked for /war because I'm trying to sway away from /rng, although I still use it for stuff like Odin and DI.

[Carrilei]

Legion Scutum and Skadi's Cuirie for your blank spaces there.

A 660 delay gun like Dragonmaw has a bTP of 17.2, meaning only 17 sTP is needed to take that to 5-hit. Mekki and Rose Strap make 9, Rajas takes that to 14, and the Chausses make it 21. So you can ditch the Rose Strap for an Axe Grip.

Melee sTP depends on what you're WSing with. For Joyeuse/Martial, it's simple as whether you WS with Rajas + Enkidu's Subligar or Skadi's Chausses, it's 14 sTP needed for 12-hit. Cobra Unit Harness and Rajas only give 11, so even with Brutal and Ecphoria you're 1 short.

There seems to be two obvious ways to go - either Harness/Chausses/Brutal = 14, or drop to 13-hit and use ASA legs, Enkidu's Harness/Cuirie, Hollow, etc. Do note you'll need at least 5 sTP to attain 13-hit instead of dropping all the way to 14. So one of Rajas, Cobra Harness, or Chausses.

So using Brutal with Joyeuse usually comes down to whether or not the sTP is helping. If it's not, and you can get the full Acc benefit of Hollow, use Hollow. Never use Brutal with MK.

Depending on your hit rate you'll probably want Wilhelm's/Altdorf's instead of TPing in Triumphs. Look into Setanta's Ledelsens for melee TP, though there's nothing wrong with Dusk Ledelsens +1.

[Gwylan]

Oily Trousers or Enkidu Leggings for THF WS? What about just SA or TA?

I have 4/5 Heca, missing legs, Pixie, Delta earring, Gorget, Love Torque, Foragers, Warwolf belt etc.

[Kyte]

I'm not a thief, but in the spirit of giving you a quick answer that's probably correct-


Oily trousers for all of the above.

[Raen Ryong]

Do you mean Enkidu's Subligar?

soloSA: Enkidu's
soloTA: Oily Trousers
All things WS related: Oily Trousers

[Dooom]

Enkidu will be slightly better for solo SA; as for DE/Evisc, I'd go with oily assuming you need the acc, and Enkidu on SA MS/SB, oily on TA MS/SB. If you don't need the acc, Enkidu.

edit - or I could be totally wrong lol, I'd listen to Raen over myself.

[Raen Ryong]

Critically speaking the Enkidu's would add more damage to the first hit of SA/MS than Oily, but Oily would also improve the chances of the other hit landing in SB's case so I'd go for it. Small difference though. SAMS ... well, 2 Attack isn't changing it much so I figured may as well just opt for the higher DEX option since it has a decent DEX mod.

[Marcicus]

Legion Scutum and Skadi's Cuirie for your blank spaces there.

A 660 delay gun like Dragonmaw has a bTP of 17.2, meaning only 17 sTP is needed to take that to 5-hit. Mekki and Rose Strap make 9, Rajas takes that to 14, and the Chausses make it 21. So you can ditch the Rose Strap for an Axe Grip.

Melee sTP depends on what you're WSing with. For Joyeuse/Martial, it's simple as whether you WS with Rajas + Enkidu's Subligar or Skadi's Chausses, it's 14 sTP needed for 12-hit. Cobra Unit Harness and Rajas only give 11, so even with Brutal and Ecphoria you're 1 short.

There seems to be two obvious ways to go - either Harness/Chausses/Brutal = 14, or drop to 13-hit and use ASA legs, Enkidu's Harness/Cuirie, Hollow, etc. Do note you'll need at least 5 sTP to attain 13-hit instead of dropping all the way to 14. So one of Rajas, Cobra Harness, or Chausses.

So using Brutal with Joyeuse usually comes down to whether or not the sTP is helping. If it's not, and you can get the full Acc benefit of Hollow, use Hollow. Never use Brutal with MK.

Depending on your hit rate you'll probably want Wilhelm's/Altdorf's instead of TPing in Triumphs. Look into Setanta's Ledelsens for melee TP, though there's nothing wrong with Dusk Ledelsens +1.

hmm. Well, I do WS with Enkidu Subligar/Rajas on Slug Shot. And I have Enkidu's Leggings I'm currently using for TP, but I was kinda going for a max haste build without having to use /DRG.

I guess since you brought up WS, do you have a setup for Slug/Detonator?

[Carrilei]

Joyeuse / Legion / Martial (augmented) / Steel
Anwig / Gorget / Altdorf / Wilhelm
Cuirie / Bazubands / Rajas / Behe/+1 (augmented)
Amemet +1 (augmented) / Commodore / Chausses / AF +1 Bottes

That's what I have tailored to G.Colibri as a default.. An alternate is to use HQ Bream Sushi instead of HQ Sole if I have it, and change the Chausses into Enkidu's Subligar. Minor change.

For Det, as a basic set.. Altdorf/Wilhelm's goes to 2x Triumph (all you're getting here is 1 ranged attack.. for 1.2m this isn't vital by any means), Fenrir's Earring at night, Cuirie goes to Denali Jacket, Behemoth Ring +1 goes to a 5 or 6 STR ring.. And Enkidu's Subligar over Skadi.

Of course it'll need adjusting based on the target's evasion, but a good rule of thumb is that if you're able to melee TP it effectively, and using sushi, a pure damage set is good to go for Det.

Edit - Martial augmented too of course, god damned FoV.

[Chen]

does STR not provide additional boosts to ranged WS's like it does to normal nonSTRmodded melee WSs?

[Carrilei]

does STR not provide additional boosts to ranged WS's like it does to normal nonSTRmodded melee WSs?

You can look at 4 STR as 2 fSTR2 and 2 Raat. You can look at 8 AGI and 1 Raat as 2 WSC and 1 Raat. fSTR2 and WSC points contribute equally, so it's just a difference of 1 Raat.

Keep in mind Slug Shot (and Detonator) don't have the actual STR modifier like Sidewinder does.

[nitsuj]

Sacrifice Torque or Summoning Torque for not HNM/Gods/Things with high evasion?

Layer on the accuracy with AF+1 pants and relic+1 hands and stick with sacrifice. There are a few other slots that you don't really have any avatar physical stuff that you could put Summoning Magic (ear + waist) and probably wear AF+1 head or Marduk to make up for the loss of the torque.

I may be forgetting something, though.

[lolwut]

hmm. Well, I do WS with Enkidu Subligar/Rajas on Slug Shot. And I have Enkidu's Leggings I'm currently using for TP, but I was kinda going for a max haste build without having to use /DRG.

I guess since you brought up WS, do you have a setup for Slug/Detonator?

Is there a reason you guys don't use the af2 hands for /ra tp? I suppose I had just assumed the 2% would be worth stacking with turtlehat without every really looking into it.

[Carrilei]

You're giving up 4.5-5 Raac and 11 Raat from wyrmal, but it's on my radar. Considering your only other source of Snapshot is Zha'Go's, it's not going to have near the impact Haste would for melee. Also if I'm ranged TPing, the target is usually evasive/difficult, so the safe choice is to go with the 2.25-2.5% hit rate and 11 Raat.

[chazzyphizzle]

Related, I saw a snapshot +1 belt from MMM.

[lolwut]

You're giving up 4.5-5 Raac and 11 Raat from wyrmal, but it's on my radar. Considering your only other source of Snapshot is Zha'Go's, it's not going to have near the impact Haste would for melee. Also if I'm ranged TPing, the target is usually evasive/difficult, so the safe choice is to go with the 2.25-2.5% hit rate and 11 Raat.

Makes sense. I was considering making a synergy jerkin for a total of 6% snapshot for tp, and just putting more acc in other slots to compensate. If it's not enough of a tp boost to make up for the lost dmg with increased ws though, I suppose it's a moot point.