What's Better?

[Nightfyre]

In that case does anyone wanna do some math assuming some different proc rates?

Did some brief math with a fairly NQ build for Kurodachi and Hagun assuming a 50% proc rate and Kuro won by nearly 20%. Given that that was for a 6-hit build on both and Kuro is 5-hittable... yeah. Hagun would still win if your WS:TP ratio was completely skewed over to WS damage, but other than that... well, let's just say the price on Hagun isn't going up again anytime soon.

[Yvonne]

Does Vengeance with: DMG:78 Delay:528 "Occ. atk. twice" seem viable to overthrow Perdu Sickle? Assuming it does proc like Joyeuse/Jailor weapons.

[Villian]

951: Goshawk 62/600 Occ. atk twice (bow) vs Ebow? Not that I know anything aobut DA bow....

[Nightfyre]

TP's about 42% faster than Perdu, WS frequency is also a 42% increase when 6-hitted but with a 5-hit that'll rocket up to around 78%. WS damage only decreases by ~10%, damage per hit during TP phase by ~18%. It's no contest.

[Talint]

Trying to figure out how I should approach Magians for some daggers on DNC:

In terms of off-handing, DMG31/Delay 211 Athame with Occasionally Attacks Twice versus Joyeuse (DMG35/Delay 224). I have max sword merits + suppa (231), zero dagger merits(256). Basically wondering if a lower DMG dagger that would provide more skill outdo a higher damage Joyeuse that comes with lower skill.

[Thorny]

if they're the same procrate(does anyone have a OAT weapon to test?), then dagger will win

[Cooleko]

actually it's the converse. recent pDIF research proved that attack caps much lower than expected, because c ratio is supposed to cap before level correction. In practice it means than using more than 500 attack during asuran fists is useless ( even less if the mob is dia3'd). So the only remaining way to improve it is play on str and vit. So you just try to reach a "tier" of str+vit, which are 150, 160, 180, 190, 200, etc ( 170 isnt a tier due to roundings).

now wait up! I am BLM who lvled mnk and fell in love, so at this time I have stacked ACC+ATK for my asurans. I know in salvage i easily have much much more than 500atk with bards and food. Are you saying I should use less atk gear and put on str+vit for my WS if i know atk is over 500 already?

also, what are these tier things you mentioned. I thought it was random wether the WS picked str or vit for the ws so if you stacked one it was ok, but are you indicating that if you just stack the best of each you can in every slot it takes the combined total?

[Acorn]

does the occasionally attack twice scythe beat DMG 105 Delay 528 too?

[Nightfyre]

If it's 50%, easily.

[mdkuser]

now wait up! I am BLM who lvled mnk and fell in love, so at this time I have stacked ACC+ATK for my asurans. I know in salvage i easily have much much more than 500atk with bards and food. Are you saying I should use less atk gear and put on str+vit for my WS if i know atk is over 500 already?

also, what are these tier things you mentioned. I thought it was random wether the WS picked str or vit for the ws so if you stacked one it was ok, but are you indicating that if you just stack the best of each you can in every slot it takes the combined total?

This is the "cap" for merit ish mobs, namely a mob with level 82 and 350 def, one hander's attack is caped slightly below 600 attack. since boost gives about 100 attack, yeah you dont need more than 500; now if you actually get minuet in salvage ( 2 bard, really? w) just do not boost, it will be bigger improvement than a minor asuran fists improvement.

The Mods of asuran fist work as follow: sum up STR+VIT, divide by 10, floor, multiply by 0,83 then floor again; this number is added to you base damage during asuran fists; the coeff .83 just means sometimes you need to increase STR+VIT by 20 and not just 10, to increase your WSC ( for example 160-> 180 ).

[Raen Ryong]

does the occasionally attack twice scythe beat DMG 105 Delay 528 too?

The OAT Scythe decimates every other nonrelic Scythe (and I would argue is very competitive with Apocalypse excluding the utility gains). It's not even close ~ assuming it's around 50%.

[Tahona]

how do any of the new polearms compare to thalla,fay,vfork,mythic,relic?

[Cooleko]

This is the "cap" for merit ish mobs, namely a mob with level 82 and 350 def, one hander's attack is caped slightly below 600 attack. since boost gives about 100 attack, yeah you dont need more than 500; now if you actually get minuet in salvage ( 2 bard, really? w) just do not boost, it will be bigger improvement than a minor asuran fists improvement.

The Mods of asuran fist work as follow: sum up STR+VIT, divide by 10, floor, multiply by 0,83 then floor again; this number is added to you base damage during asuran fists; the coeff .83 just means sometimes you need to increase STR+VIT by 20 and not just 10, to increase your WSC ( for example 160-> 180 ).

thanks for the explanation, and i usualy take 1 or 2 bards, no hating! why would you prefer double march over 1march/1minuet? I find that first floor is much better from minuet because no gear and just dont leave that logic as we ungear or zone up.

[Fwahm]

Is aiming for a 5 hit feasible for DRK/SAM without SAM roll, or does it sacrifice too much haste/accuracy for the store TP?

With at 528 delay scythe, and standard weaponskill gear, it takes at least 25 Store TP on gear to get a reliable 5 hit going for DRK/SAM.

[Norellicus]

This is the "cap" for merit ish mobs, namely a mob with level 82 and 350 def, one hander's attack is caped slightly below 600 attack. since boost gives about 100 attack, yeah you dont need more than 500; now if you actually get minuet in salvage ( 2 bard, really? w) just do not boost, it will be bigger improvement than a minor asuran fists improvement.

The Mods of asuran fist work as follow: sum up STR+VIT, divide by 10, floor, multiply by 0,83 then floor again; this number is added to you base damage during asuran fists; the coeff .83 just means sometimes you need to increase STR+VIT by 20 and not just 10, to increase your WSC ( for example 160-> 180 ).

If the mob has 350 defense, then you need 700 attack to cap; anything lower and you're not getting there, level correction or not.

[mdkuser]

no, level correction is applied first.

crato caps at 2.0 on even matches.

on level 82 it caps at 2.0-7*0.05=1.65

1.65*350=577 <-- actual attack cap.

[pchan]

If the mob has 350 defense, then you need 700 attack to cap; anything lower and you're not getting there, level correction or not.

show me your 1400 asuran fist on MMJ or birds. 700 att is common during asuranfists with cor, plus your are forgetting this wonderfull spell, dia3, which makes berserk useless. So without the level correction part you'd cap earlier than 700.

[Nightfyre]

how do any of the new polearms compare to thalla,fay,vfork,mythic,relic?

Assuming the OAT weapon procs at 50%, it basically destroys anything that isn't a relic (dunno about mythic). It only needs Rajas and Brutal for a 6-hit (1 more sTP if you want a true 6-hit), can use Sword Strap with Aurum Cuirass and maintain a true 6-hit too. 28 STP after /SAM nets a 5-hit with 2 additional hits of Drakesbane, but you'll need Carbonara to pull it off.

Is aiming for a 5 hit feasible for DRK/SAM without SAM roll, or does it sacrifice too much haste/accuracy for the store TP?

With at 528 delay scythe, and standard weaponskill gear, it takes at least 25 Store TP on gear to get a reliable 5 hit going for DRK/SAM.

Rajas, Rose, WTath, Brutal, Aurum Cuirass, and Carbonara will pull it off with only two hits of Guillotine (one being the first). You're looking at about 400 accuracy before you start having to drop Haste gear, but it's a pretty powerful build when applicable.

[Dooom]

Is aiming for a 5 hit feasible for DRK/SAM without SAM roll, or does it sacrifice too much haste/accuracy for the store TP?

With at 528 delay scythe, and standard weaponskill gear, it takes at least 25 Store TP on gear to get a reliable 5 hit going for DRK/SAM.

Friend of mine uses this with pizza on a fair few things, it performs very well, but really needs acc food of some sort.

[Norellicus]

no, level correction is applied first.

crato caps at 2.0 on even matches.

on level 82 it caps at 2.0-7*0.05=1.65

1.65*350=577 <-- actual attack cap.

Was this changed more recently than the 2007 fix? Because I'm pretty sure that made your att:def cap apply before anything else was done, then level correct is applied, then pdif.

I mean, it makes logical sense to level correct first, because it creates situations where you cannot feasibly attack the monster for any damage, no matter how many buffs you have applied to yourself, but seems contradictory to historical information