Drop XXI: The HNM Auction House

[avelle]

MY GOD CATS ARE TERRIBLE

You shut your mouth.

[matt4684]

How dare you post Einherjar drops in the middle of a 3 page discussion about Einherjar bard rotations.

(By the way, if bard rotation or lack there of makes the difference between winning and losing in Einherjar then your bards are either singing through a kazoo or you have bigger things to worry about)

[Cleverness]

Grats on the fork, I'm sure some DRG will come in soon and rage cause it has such a shitty droprate across several servers. Although you forgot the #1 Mithra rule; pics from the backside only.

[Genrye]

we cant get them to stop dropping, we've gotten like 4 in the last 7 odins?

[Kilorilo]

few days old. Also first time I saw Odin Avatar in action doing 8-9% at the start, would love to see what 10+ could do o.o

Spoiler: show

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9763/odinb.png

[Demosthenes11]

failure you care way too much about us not caring about a bard rotation.

nobody has really said/meant it's more efficient not to, but it's a matter of why for us

[Cairthenn]

I'm curious if Failure is used to having to spell everything out so explicitly simply because a good majority of Volume is dead weight or because he has nothing better to do than feel like he's educating the masses. My comment wasn't in regards to you; I do know how to read, thanks for your concern.

I do have to nitpick a point though: There are certain situations in Einherjar you really are not really going to benefit anymore using Cura (when possible, it won't always be), Esuna, self cures, constantly casting Stoneskin, etc. than you would standing out of range and simply managing your melees from afar with much less danger to yourself.

I'm primarily thinking of bombs, but I know there are other examples which simply aren't coming to mind.

[Kipling]

failure you care way too much about us not caring about a bard rotation.

nobody has really said/meant it's more efficient not to, but it's a matter of why for us

If someone else was arguing something similar to this you would be going out of your way to verbally crush them.

Don't say you wouldn't be.

[Demosthenes11]

If someone else was arguing something similar to this you would be going out of your way to verbally crush them.

Don't say you wouldn't be.

you know id say a word or 2 but theres no way id argue for 2 pages with essays worth

[Drex]

efficiency

accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort

rotating bards to shave a minute off your einherjar run when you're already winning in 15mins without a rotation is not efficient. there's more to efficiency than time spent, and a run that takes 1-2 less mins is not more efficient if it requires more micromanagement. even without chaos roll - dia, meat, and 60-80% of the time berserked melee make minuet a minor increase at best outside of the boss. madrigal is just lol on ein waves. bard rotation requires more effort and concentration than no bard rotation, even with macros, and if it doesn't dramatically improve your clear time then it is not necessarily more efficient.

also, avelle only has two songs in the valk fork ss. this is an outrage!

[FailureMidgard]

I'm curious if Failure is used to having to spell everything out so explicitly simply because a good majority of Volume is dead weight or because he has nothing better to do than feel like he's educating the masses. My comment wasn't in regards to you; I do know how to read, thanks for your concern.

I do have to nitpick a point though: There are certain situations in Einherjar you really are not really going to benefit anymore using Cura (when possible, it won't always be), Esuna, self cures, constantly casting Stoneskin, etc. than you would standing out of range and simply managing your melees from afar with much less danger to yourself.

I'm primarily thinking of bombs, but I know there are other examples which simply aren't coming to mind.

I agree there are times it's not worth the effort, but that isn't the argument that was made. Also, bombs and dragons are probably the only times I'd opt not to. Past that, you don't need to cast stoneskin, or self cure any more than perhaps a regen on yourself here and there. And esuna is far less effort than -naing ~3 people. As for why I argue, because I really just get bored. I'm not really sure how people can even begin to argue that cura is bad, however.

Demosthenes - sorry you are wrong, Sath has come in here and was flat out saying that a bard rotation is inferior. Maybe you disagree with him, but that was where that argument began, iirc. I'm fine if people don't use it, I'm fine if people don't use corsairs, I'm fine if people don't use food, and to be honest, you can leave all your melee blinded and paralyzed the entire run and still win. If you want to do it, go for it.

[Fridell]

Good read, I laughed so hard at all stupidity.

[BerenTebogo]

I agree there are times it's not worth the effort, but that isn't the argument that was made. Also, bombs and dragons are probably the only times I'd opt not to. Past that, you don't need to cast stoneskin, or self cure any more than perhaps a regen on yourself here and there. And esuna is far less effort than -naing ~3 people. As for why I argue, because I really just get bored. I'm not really sure how people can even begin to argue that cura is bad, however.

Demosthenes - sorry you are wrong, Sath has come in here and was flat out saying that a bard rotation is inferior. Maybe you disagree with him, but that was where that argument began, iirc. I'm fine if people don't use it, I'm fine if people don't use corsairs, I'm fine if people don't use food, and to be honest, you can leave all your melee blinded and paralyzed the entire run and still win. If you want to do it, go for it.

Bard rotation is inferior for all the numerous reasons already stated. Most clearly via the exact definition of efficiency. If you're already winning Einherjar than moving from no rotation to rotation is inferior. Period. End of story. No exceptions.

More work for the EXACT same result is inefficient, stupid, and ridiculous. Einherjar has two results: win or lose. In a timed event the time you clear it in, as long as it is less than maximum amount of time, cannot be a mitigating factor for or against any situation in a rational argument.

Given that there are only two direct outcomes of Einherjar I'll repeat again, so nobody misunderstands me, if you have a 98%+ win rate (I'm sorry, nobody has a 100% win rate over two years - NOBODY - if you say you do, you're lying.) with minimal effort expended then you are being more efficient than the LS winning with maximum effort. The thing is though that it doesn't matter who is more efficient as long as choice A (winning) out of choices A or B (losing) are met.

Situations like:
1) Dynamis where efficiency is directly correlated to AF, currency, and overall progress of the entire shell

2) Meriting where efficiency is directly correlated to how much EXP / ISP / KS / BS you acquire in a given amount of time and thus how much improvement you can directly make to your character

3) Limbus / Salvage where efficiency is directly correlated to how much alexandrite or ABCs you get as well as how many opportunities for gear you are allowed per run

4) Nyzul Isle where efficiency is directly correlated to how many opportunities for double climbs or full clearing all NMs for a chance at rare items to improve your character over simply fulfilling floor objectives and leaving Simurgh and Argus up unkilled in order to win

Einherjar, regardless of whether you clear in 10 seconds from entering the chamber or at 29:59 on the clock has the exact same outcome. There is nothing that can be done in any Einherjar run that will improve the rewards you receive nor even alter them in any fashion, positive or negative. Retaining the arguably maximum possible win percentage after taking into account that a 100% win rate is impossible to sustain in the long run (shut up, seriously, don't argue this.) while putting forth the least amount of effort is by definition the most efficient, and therefor most logical, choice that allows you to receive the maximum possible benefit from the zone (static from clear.) Thus making it a better choice, logically not practically, period.

tl;dr? Bard swapping is inferior. You're wrong.

[Fridell]

Good post, I love you

[BerenTebogo]

And before someone spouts bullshit about the opportunity cost of 3-10 minutes twice a week, let me stop you right here:

It cannot be quantified as per this argument. Anything ranging from events your linkshell has scheduled, gather time, time spent looking for party, time spent traveling from zone to zone, real life, even the migratory patterns of pelicans can directly interfere with the end result of how the 3-10 minutes are used in this situation.

Given that it's not a static and cumulative time factor (i.e. if you save 10 minutes a day twice a week that can be applied at any time over the course of a year you've given yourself xxx gil worth of opportunity) and can only be directly considered in between the end of the run and start of next event for LS or next planned event for you whether RL or FFXI.

More specifically? If Einherjar maxes out at 8:00PM EST and you finish at 7:44PM EST but Nidhogg day 9 opens at 8:33PM EST the end result of when you finish Einherjar is all but moot.

If Einherjar maxes at 2:00PM EST and you finish at 1:44PM EST and you have free day until 5:00PM EST you have from the exact moment you finish Einherjar until the time remaining at the end of the run (same 3-10 minutes I've been using) to make use of that time in one form or another until it's lost forever. It's a perishable opportunity.

If you take 5 minutes to post on BG about how people don't understand practical application versus vacuum application without independent variable impact then you've wasted the time saved in the Einherjar chamber you've just won.

You people make me want to shove midgets into horses. I don't know why, it seems like it might relieve stress.

[Nuiness]

I don't know Sath. I think every party should have 3 BRDs, and 2 CORs and a melee. Nah, fuck the melee. Another COR.

[Kouu]

Already established that the best party setup is as follows:

Banrai, BRD x2 (Both with Gjallarhorn), COR x2, WHM

6 man Tier 3 Einherjars in 6min53s average. Efficiency at it's god damned finest.

[Ustav]

Double Mad march hunters/chaos and idk what else =/

Ilu ban prz marry me ::

[pchan]

I don't know Sath. I think every party should have 3 BRDs, and 2 CORs and a melee. Nah, fuck the melee. Another COR.

3 BRDs 1 COR 1 DNC 1 SMN DIA3 haste parties only .. wait

[FailureMidgard]

Bard rotation is inferior for all the numerous reasons already stated. Most clearly via the exact definition of efficiency. If you're already winning Einherjar than moving from no rotation to rotation is inferior. Period. End of story. No exceptions.

More work for the EXACT same result is inefficient, stupid, and ridiculous. Einherjar has two results: win or lose. In a timed event the time you clear it in, as long as it is less than maximum amount of time, cannot be a mitigating factor for or against any situation in a rational argument.

Given that there are only two direct outcomes of Einherjar I'll repeat again, so nobody misunderstands me, if you have a 98%+ win rate (I'm sorry, nobody has a 100% win rate over two years - NOBODY - if you say you do, you're lying.) with minimal effort expended then you are being more efficient than the LS winning with maximum effort. The thing is though that it doesn't matter who is more efficient as long as choice A (winning) out of choices A or B (losing) are met.

Situations like:
1) Dynamis where efficiency is directly correlated to AF, currency, and overall progress of the entire shell

2) Meriting where efficiency is directly correlated to how much EXP / ISP / KS / BS you acquire in a given amount of time and thus how much improvement you can directly make to your character

3) Limbus / Salvage where efficiency is directly correlated to how much alexandrite or ABCs you get as well as how many opportunities for gear you are allowed per run

4) Nyzul Isle where efficiency is directly correlated to how many opportunities for double climbs or full clearing all NMs for a chance at rare items to improve your character over simply fulfilling floor objectives and leaving Simurgh and Argus up unkilled in order to win

Einherjar, regardless of whether you clear in 10 seconds from entering the chamber or at 29:59 on the clock has the exact same outcome. There is nothing that can be done in any Einherjar run that will improve the rewards you receive nor even alter them in any fashion, positive or negative. Retaining the arguably maximum possible win percentage after taking into account that a 100% win rate is impossible to sustain in the long run (shut up, seriously, don't argue this.) while putting forth the least amount of effort is by definition the most efficient, and therefor most logical, choice that allows you to receive the maximum possible benefit from the zone (static from clear.) Thus making it a better choice, logically not practically, period.

tl;dr? Bard swapping is inferior. You're wrong.

Using food is clearly inefficient.
Paying attention and caring about engaging quickly is inefficient.
Casting Dia is inefficient.

The list goes on. I also disagree on the 100% win rate. I'm not going to say that we have a 100% win rate (lost 1 since I've been here), but back then we didn't bother bard rotating, we had a Ghorn bard that felt march+minuet was the way to go, we didn't have corsairs in every party, and about 10 other things that went wrong - we timed out with 1.5 mobs remaining. Fact of the matter is, we would have won if we optimized more. Granted, this is only a 6month time frame that I'm talking about, but I don't believe there's some magical unkillable combination in Einherjar, and every bit of time you shave off is that much more time you have to cover for mistakes (including a full wipe). I believe every Ein T3 is clearable with a full wipe with ~24 people. I also believe that ~12 or so people could full clear Ein with decent reliability (relics obviously).

Furthermore, why do you people think it's some huge task to bard swap? Again, for the record, we don't even do it, we just bring corsairs, which is the best of both worlds, really. But that aside, you're acting like bard swapping is some huge task and added effort, when it really isn't at all. 3 bard rotations suck, people lose track of them/etc. Swapping 2 bards between 2 parties is a huge joke and takes literally 0 effort. I'd say it's less total effort to do that and actually not use food (woohoo saving gil) than vice versa. Sorry, you're wrong.

Also, Limbus/Salvage I'm gonna have to disagree with you not being like Einherjar, for the record. You can clear every NM in Salvage, and basically full clear Limbus. I'm sorry, but when you're talking about 3k/X people Alexandrite and 7k/X people ABCs, I can easily make more than that by spending that extra time going to whitegate and teleporting people right after the run. I agree that saying you're saving 10min in Ein is a silly idea. It's equally silly to care about your performance in Limbus/Salvage for the sake of making 5-10k gil (at the cost of 30+min easily in Limbus).