Drop XXI: The HNM Auction House

[Militant]

Or dorps inclu.... yeah.

[Eanae]

Or charts of drops quite obviously.

[Aragon of Odin]

http://i324.photobucket.com/albums/k...ondogg/264.png

Grats to Sky and Eilis.

[BerenTebogo]

Using food is clearly inefficient.
Paying attention and caring about engaging quickly is inefficient.
Casting Dia is inefficient.

The list goes on. I also disagree on the 100% win rate. I'm not going to say that we have a 100% win rate (lost 1 since I've been here), but back then we didn't bother bard rotating, we had a Ghorn bard that felt march+minuet was the way to go, we didn't have corsairs in every party, and about 10 other things that went wrong - we timed out with 1.5 mobs remaining. Fact of the matter is, we would have won if we optimized more. Granted, this is only a 6month time frame that I'm talking about, but I don't believe there's some magical unkillable combination in Einherjar, and every bit of time you shave off is that much more time you have to cover for mistakes (including a full wipe). I believe every Ein T3 is clearable with a full wipe with ~24 people. I also believe that ~12 or so people could full clear Ein with decent reliability (relics obviously).

Furthermore, why do you people think it's some huge task to bard swap? Again, for the record, we don't even do it, we just bring corsairs, which is the best of both worlds, really. But that aside, you're acting like bard swapping is some huge task and added effort, when it really isn't at all. 3 bard rotations suck, people lose track of them/etc. Swapping 2 bards between 2 parties is a huge joke and takes literally 0 effort. I'd say it's less total effort to do that and actually not use food (woohoo saving gil) than vice versa. Sorry, you're wrong.

Also, Limbus/Salvage I'm gonna have to disagree with you not being like Einherjar, for the record. You can clear every NM in Salvage, and basically full clear Limbus. I'm sorry, but when you're talking about 3k/X people Alexandrite and 7k/X people ABCs, I can easily make more than that by spending that extra time going to whitegate and teleporting people right after the run. I agree that saying you're saving 10min in Ein is a silly idea. It's equally silly to care about your performance in Limbus/Salvage for the sake of making 5-10k gil (at the cost of 30+min easily in Limbus).

It doesn't matter if you agree or not. They're statistically quantifiable differences in the end result re: limbus and salvage where, as stated, there are no statistically quantifiable differences in the end result of Einherjar at all. The unfortunate circumstances of this argument has created both direct cause and effect facts and fallacies.

Your opinion about whether or not Limbus and Salvage are like Einherjar is entirely and completely irrelevant because whether you "agree" with it or not the fact remains that there will always be an near-infinitely variable number of possible outcomes for every run in terms of maximum reward for the run - where total reward is adjusted by total time and both by total amount of actions expended per run ("effort")

Einherjar, for the billionth time, does not have the near-infinite possible outcome system that effort::drop correlated events do. Ever. Thus affirming your sarcastic statement that if you can win Einherjar over the course of years with the statistically highest possible win rate allowable after factoring in human error, attendance, etc without ever using a single piece of food or casting a single -na or casting a single song then that becomes the most logical choice for your group within the system. Period.

However, because human error cannot be factored in as a constant into the margin of error, a LS must gauge on its own where the threshold exists for them where "least effort" meets "maximum win-rate" based on varying factors within the shell which will never be static because they range to things as incalculable as player personality.

At the end of the day you can say that you don't like what I'm saying, it's stupid, or that it isn't practically applicable for the sake of argument, but you don't get to disagree with the factual outcomes of events. You can't just dismiss facts by disagreeing with them because you don't like them. See? Even this triceratops agrees:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...5129524590.jpg

[FailureMidgard]

You're grasping at straws here. Where do your lists of facts come from? How is "amount of gil" a quantifiable difference and time spent isn't? Let's take that a step further, if you do Ein with less people, you will see an increase in the amount of item drops you get. Not just abjurations, but silly gil drops like gold and platinum ingots. In order to do Einherjar with less people, you need to increase your efficiency so that you can win with less people.

I'm sorry, but more ABCs or Alexandrite is not any more of a quantifiable difference in end result than more gold ingots per person or a fucking extra 10 minutes at the end of the run (Which I'm sorry, but time is money. You sit here and deny it in your first post, but then think that a 3k piece of alexandrite is a quantifiable difference?) Can easily go farm a BS or KS between Hazhalm and Nashmau or you can go to whitegate and teleport a couple people, farm up a few spider webs, etc. Really, all of those options are shitty gil/hr, but sorry, they're better than spending time farming extra ABCs or Alexandrite. You do not get to choose to say that saving 10minutes of time is pointless but getting 1 more alexandrite per person i a better degree of success. Take them both or leave them both, 'cause they're the same fucking thing.

Finally, I'm sorry, but opinion does matter here. Ask a reasonable and intelligent person if he wants to spend an extra 30minutes farming Alexandrite and his response will be no, because he can make more gil/alexandrite spending that 30 minutes elsewhere. See, you do have different degrees of success:
1. Clear in 1hr, spend 40min farming something elsewhere.
2. Clear in 1hr, spend an extra 40min killing every extra mob you can for Alexandrite.
3. Clear in 1hr39min.

I hate to break it to you, but #1 will end up with more alexandrite than #2 after they go buy some (even overpriced) in rolanberry, roughly 100% of the time.

Also, out of curiosity, if you joined a shell that took 29min and 30-50 seconds to clear every chamber, do you think you'd be happy there? Or would that annoy you? Something tells me that'd piss you off, and you wouldn't be happy with it. But why? It's the same as clearing with 15min remaining, right?

[Thorny]

If you have 25 people with relics on every DD at einherjar, you shouldn't be using brd rotations with 25 people. You should be splitting into 12+13, using brd rotations, and getting twice the odins. Realistically, if you can boast a 100% win rate without brd swaps, you most likely have enough people to be getting 2 wins with them. If, for whatever reason, that isn't the case(i'd wager 18-20 could 100% win without brd swaps if geared well enough but split isn't viable at all) then it's less clear cut. If you take 5 minutes off of a 20 man run, you're saving 100 minutes. That's quite a bit of time. However, do you have something coming up after einherjar? Is a kings window within 30 minutes of it? Job change takes 3-10 minutes, depending on person and attention span, so it's not always viable to make use of a section of time as little as 5 minutes. If you change to something to farm, and immediately have to change back for a window, you're going to end up late, to whatever end that results in. For brd swapping to truly be more efficient when you don't need it to get a capped win rate, you'd need members to be making use of that time. Think about your linkshell, I know you're great as a leader Failure, but you still have quite a bit of dead weight. How many people are going to be sitting in their home nation for 5-30 min talking about nothing after ein finishes? I don't think I've ever been in a ls where everyone was always doing something..

[Cairthenn]

Who finishes Salvage in one hour?

Also, Thorny, I'm sure you know T3 Einherjar isn't 100% clear with 12-13 even with skilled members and relics. Though, you could be trolling.

[BerenTebogo]

You're grasping at straws here. Where do your lists of facts come from? How is "amount of gil" a quantifiable difference and time spent isn't? Let's take that a step further, if you do Ein with less people, you will see an increase in the amount of item drops you get. Not just abjurations, but silly gil drops like gold and platinum ingots. In order to do Einherjar with less people, you need to increase your efficiency so that you can win with less people.

I'm sorry, but more ABCs or Alexandrite is not any more of a quantifiable difference in end result than more gold ingots per person or a fucking extra 10 minutes at the end of the run (Which I'm sorry, but time is money. You sit here and deny it in your first post, but then think that a 3k piece of alexandrite is a quantifiable difference?) Can easily go farm a BS or KS between Hazhalm and Nashmau or you can go to whitegate and teleport a couple people, farm up a few spider webs, etc. Really, all of those options are shitty gil/hr, but sorry, they're better than spending time farming extra ABCs or Alexandrite. You do not get to choose to say that saving 10minutes of time is pointless but getting 1 more alexandrite per person i a better degree of success. Take them both or leave them both, 'cause they're the same fucking thing.

Finally, I'm sorry, but opinion does matter here. Ask a reasonable and intelligent person if he wants to spend an extra 30minutes farming Alexandrite and his response will be no, because he can make more gil/alexandrite spending that 30 minutes elsewhere. See, you do have different degrees of success:
1. Clear in 1hr, spend 40min farming something elsewhere.
2. Clear in 1hr, spend an extra 40min killing every extra mob you can for Alexandrite.
3. Clear in 1hr39min.

I hate to break it to you, but #1 will end up with more alexandrite than #2 after they go buy some (even overpriced) in rolanberry, roughly 100% of the time.

Also, out of curiosity, if you joined a shell that took 29min and 30-50 seconds to clear every chamber, do you think you'd be happy there? Or would that annoy you? Something tells me that'd piss you off, and you wouldn't be happy with it. But why? It's the same as clearing with 15min remaining, right?

You really don't understand the difference in opinion versus fact and that makes me sad since you've actually graduated college.

Quantifiable variables, even if 0.000000001% positive or negative are still variables whether you choose to accept them as relevant or not. Guess what? I don't give a fuck whether or not you care if they're relevant.

They exist and will continue to exist and continue to be a factor long after this argument because they are fixed facts of the events. Jesus fucking christ, you say I'm grasping at straws? Your argument is the equivalent of a creationist arguing against evolution because it's his opinion and therefor should be scientific fact. Fucking cockballs.

As far as the Alexandrite? Your reference is about as fucking idiotic as it comes. Whether person A, B, C, or Z wants to farm more Alexandrite doesn't discount that the total is still near infinitely variable based on an incalculable number of reference points.

I'm going to break here to make something very clear to you.

Ready?

OPINIONS DO NOT DICTATE FACTS. EVER. STOP IT JESUS FUCKING SHIT THROWING CHRIST. WHAT YOU WANT OR ARE WILLING TO DO WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, AFFECT THE TOTAL VARIABLE AMOUNT OF POSSIBLE OUTCOMES.

Stopping early is just one of a bajillion possible outcomes and the ability to stop early is? You guessed it! Based on another bajillion variables within your group and the players within it. The market value of alexandrite and ABCs do not change this in any way.

The one point I will even halfway concede to you on is the amount of people in Einherjar vs. the total gil split of entry vs. the total gil split of money items at the end. However the number of people you bring to Einherjar isn't variable based on efficiency - it's variable based on your shell. You don't cut people from your shell out of Einherjar because of platinum ingots.

And the reason I only somewhat concede your point is that some shells take all money items worth more than 10k and put them back into the Einherjar fund rendering the total people vs. money argument null.

And finally? My opinion about whatever a shell does in terms of time and whether I'd be pissed off is null. I'm arguing factual and quantifiable differences in events and you're arguing how I'd FEEL?

I like you as a person but right now I want to choke the life out of you with a bedsheet that has the scientific method scrawled out all over it.

[Cairthenn]

You don't cut people from your shell out of Einherjar because of platinum ingots.

Fuck, you're not supposed to do that?

[FailureMidgard]

If you have 25 people with relics on every DD at einherjar, you shouldn't be using brd rotations with 25 people. You should be splitting into 12+13, using brd rotations, and getting twice the odins. Realistically, if you can boast a 100% win rate without brd swaps, you most likely have enough people to be getting 2 wins with them. If, for whatever reason, that isn't the case(i'd wager 18-20 could 100% win without brd swaps if geared well enough but split isn't viable at all) then it's less clear cut. If you take 5 minutes off of a 20 man run, you're saving 100 minutes. That's quite a bit of time. However, do you have something coming up after einherjar? Is a kings window within 30 minutes of it? Job change takes 3-10 minutes, depending on person and attention span, so it's not always viable to make use of a section of time as little as 5 minutes. If you change to something to farm, and immediately have to change back for a window, you're going to end up late, to whatever end that results in. For brd swapping to truly be more efficient when you don't need it to get a capped win rate, you'd need members to be making use of that time. Think about your linkshell, I know you're great as a leader Failure, but you still have quite a bit of dead weight. How many people are going to be sitting in their home nation for 5-30 min talking about nothing after ein finishes? I don't think I've ever been in a ls where everyone was always doing something..

I agree there is deadweight, in virtually every linkshell. And I'm not saying 5minutes is a huge deal, I'm saying it's as important as farming 3 extra alexandrite. I'm saying 3 people with 5minutes a pop can make as much extra gil as farming every extra gear in a salvage zone will give you.

And it's easy to use 5 minutes. Kill some chigoes/imps/whatever outside Hazhalm for seals. Go teleport in Whitegate, go retrace in whitegate. Can everyone do it? Nope, but I'd bet a lot that if half the people in your Ein run go and spend 5min, they will make far more than the gil difference in ABCs or Alex (even before counting extra time spent in limbus/salvage) that Sath is claiming is a tangible difference. Time is a tangible difference.

You really don't understand the difference in opinion versus fact and that makes me sad since you've actually graduated college.

Quantifiable variables, even if 0.000000001% positive or negative are still variables whether you choose to accept them as relevant or not. Guess what? I don't give a fuck whether or not you care if they're relevant.

You're failing at reading here. I'm not saying Alexandrite isn't a quantifiable difference. I'm saying you're claiming fact and then spewing opinion.
Fact: Alexandrite and ABCs are "Extra success"
Fact: Extra time is "Extra success"
Fact: Alex and ABCs have an opportunity cost that is higher than their value.
Fact: Extra time from Ein has an opportunity cost of inviting people to a party a couple extra times which takes no effort.

Stop inputting your opinion that time doesn't matter, while claiming that you are adhering to facts. I am not saying Alex and ABCs aren't an extra measure of success. I am saying time is also, and is more important than Alex/ABCs (due to their opportunity cost) but you dismiss it.

I like you as a person but right now I want to choke the life out of you with a bedsheet that has the scientific method scrawled out all over it.

Seems to me you are picking and choosing what you want to read here. I'm not saying that ABCs and Alex aren't a degree of success, I'm saying that they are less of a degree of success than finishing Ein early, I'm saying that everything has a market value, and the 5-10min its worth more than the extra Alex or ABCs you get at the cost of more time spent.

Furthermore, I'm asking how you feel because shell morale is important. You're not going to retain quality members if you're winning at 29.5min+. You also likely won't have a good win rate, but that's another story. There is a difference here that is worth noting between a 20minute clear and a 29minute clear. It's not as clear cut as "a win is a win".

I don't even know what we're arguing anymore, but you are definitely wrong to try to claim that there is a factual difference in success by getting X more gil, but not by saving Y time. Both are higher degrees of success, and it does come down to opinion on how much each individual person's time is worth. But it won't take anywhere near your entire group to go farm for 5minutes for 5minutes to be more valuable than the increase in gil gained in salvage.

My opinion isn't a part of this, you keep making yours so though.

[BerenTebogo]

Honestly, this is worse than your display against Neosutra in the Boxer's Mantle vs. Shadow Mantle thread.

Everyone but you understands what is being argued and has had no problem understanding both sides of the situation.

I'm done arguing with you because the point is that you're flat out wrong in what you're saying and stating logical fallacies as fact to try to prove a point that cannot even be made. You're also stating as truth points that have already been disputed or labeled as unable to quantify without thousands of unstated data points per specific shell or group of people. You can't just approximate shit that varies from person to person without any data. That's called a blind guess.

You've strayed so far from logic that it's made me sad. I've stated my position clearly and if you really can't understand then there are bigger problems here other than a difference of positions in an argument.

[BerenTebogo]

Double post for emphasis:

Thorny and I are on the exact same side of the "how the time saved in Einherjar is used" argument as we've both said the EXACT same thing in this thread. That should be a big, bright flashing sign telling you that you're an idiot to disagree.

We never see eye to eye on anything that can't be displayed as absolute fact.

[Mateuns7]

Me and Thorny

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Sorry, pet peeve of mine. You're still awesome.

[NynJa]

Finally, I'm sorry, but opinion does matter here. Ask a reasonable and intelligent person if he wants to spend an extra 30minutes farming Alexandrite and his response will be no, because he can make more gil/alexandrite spending that 30 minutes elsewhere. See, you do have different degrees of success:
1. Clear in 1hr, spend 40min farming something elsewhere.
2. Clear in 1hr, spend an extra 40min killing every extra mob you can for Alexandrite.
3. Clear in 1hr39min.

RMTed relic says once you're cleared a salvage area, you're forced to exit rendering number2 nul.

Unless you've found a way to either (bhaf as example):
-go back down from LBC's floor to 4f to clear out the middle room's trips, then back down to 3f to clear out the east/west wing gears
-re-enter a reactionary rampart room and farm more NM's.

[FailureMidgard]

Honestly, this is worse than your display against Neosutra in the Boxer's Mantle vs. Shadow Mantle thread.

Everyone but you understands what is being argued and has had no problem understanding both sides of the situation.

I'm done arguing with you because the point is that you're flat out wrong in what you're saying and stating logical fallacies as fact to try to prove a point that cannot even be made. You're also stating as truth points that have already been disputed or labeled as unable to quantify without thousands of unstated data points per specific shell or group of people. You can't just approximate shit that varies from person to person without any data. That's called a blind guess.

You've strayed so far from logic that it's made me sad. I've stated my position clearly and if you really can't understand then there are bigger problems here other than a difference of positions in an argument.

Double post for emphasis:

Thorny and I are on the exact same side of the "how the time saved in Einherjar is used" argument as we've both said the EXACT same thing in this thread. That should be a big, bright flashing sign telling you that you're an idiot to disagree.

We never see eye to eye on anything that can't be displayed as absolute fact.

You think that bard rotating won't save time? Or that time can't be turned into money? I really don't see how you think 5minutes can't be turned into money. I'm not saying go solo something worth 1mil, I'm talking on the same level as what extra Alexandrite is. Money is money.

Just answer 1 question: How do you work it out in your mind that 5 minutes is worth less than 1 alexandrite. Honestly. I don't see how the fuck you can make this argument. If you're saying bard rotating won't save 5 minutes and there's too many variables, fine, but that was not at all your original argument at all, you stated that it doesn't matter if you win @ 29.5min or at 15min, which is flat out wrong. And regardless of exactly how much it changes, doing more damage will mean faster clear, it's just vague by how much. I don't know what I'm arguing, or what you're arguing outside of that.

[FailureMidgard]

RMTed relic says once you're cleared a salvage area, you're forced to exit rendering number2 nul.

Unless you've found a way to either (bhaf as example):
-go back down from LBC's floor to 4f to clear out the middle room's trips, then back down to 3f to clear out the east/west wing gears
-re-enter a reactionary rampart room and farm more NM's.

You chose the only zone this doesn't apply to. A good group/leader will push bhaflau ramparts to the minute to give you as much farming as possible, so you aren't farming Alex anyway. In Arrapago say....when you're regularly clearing with 15-30min remaining left, you can easily farm extra gears/ramparts on every floor before the end. You don't -need- to kill the Chariot first...point is you spend extra time for extra Alex.

[BerenTebogo]

You think that bard rotating won't save time? Or that time can't be turned into money? I really don't see how you think 5minutes can't be turned into money. I'm not saying go solo something worth 1mil, I'm talking on the same level as what extra Alexandrite is. Money is money.

Just answer 1 question: How do you work it out in your mind that 5 minutes is worth less than 1 alexandrite. Honestly. I don't see how the fuck you can make this argument. If you're saying bard rotating won't save 5 minutes and there's too many variables, fine, but that was not at all your original argument at all, you stated that it doesn't matter if you win @ 29.5min or at 15min, which is flat out wrong. And regardless of exactly how much it changes, doing more damage will mean faster clear, it's just vague by how much. I don't know what I'm arguing, or what you're arguing outside of that.

I'll answer your 1 question even though it's now been answered twice in this thread. Unless you personally every single time immediately use that 5 minutes to make more than 3k worth of gil before your next event that you wouldn't have had the time to do without that 5 minutes then you've gained absolutely nothing.

Same goes for taking an extra 5 minutes for 1 alexandrite depriving you of a 5 minute opportunity you no longer have for that day / period of time due to the increased farming time for 1 alexandrite.

You can't throw out hypothetical gil values for time when the time saved is perishable, not cumulative as I've already stated very clearly. It's impossible and illogical. You are REQUIRED to use the time saved in a proactive way that you did not have access to without the aforementioned time in order for it to actually change ANYTHING.

I've said it, Thorny has said it, you just don't understand it.

If you have 25 people with relics on every DD at einherjar, you shouldn't be using brd rotations with 25 people. You should be splitting into 12+13, using brd rotations, and getting twice the odins. Realistically, if you can boast a 100% win rate without brd swaps, you most likely have enough people to be getting 2 wins with them. If, for whatever reason, that isn't the case(i'd wager 18-20 could 100% win without brd swaps if geared well enough but split isn't viable at all) then it's less clear cut. If you take 5 minutes off of a 20 man run, you're saving 100 minutes. That's quite a bit of time. However, do you have something coming up after einherjar? Is a kings window within 30 minutes of it? Job change takes 3-10 minutes, depending on person and attention span, so it's not always viable to make use of a section of time as little as 5 minutes. If you change to something to farm, and immediately have to change back for a window, you're going to end up late, to whatever end that results in. For brd swapping to truly be more efficient when you don't need it to get a capped win rate, you'd need members to be making use of that time. Think about your linkshell, I know you're great as a leader Failure, but you still have quite a bit of dead weight. How many people are going to be sitting in their home nation for 5-30 min talking about nothing after ein finishes? I don't think I've ever been in a ls where everyone was always doing something..

[Demosthenes11]

failure i hope you never afk cuz that 5 minutes to get food is costing you time that would undoubtedly make you millions

[NynJa]

Theres too many variables no matter how you slice n dice it. Heres one:
if your thief is pulling, and you're killing so fast you run into the problem that they're forced to have downtime which slows you down, or your thief keeps a steady flow of mobs that they dont all wind up getting tagged (linked pulls for example). Either way, you lose out.

inb4 bard pulling

[FailureMidgard]

[/b]

I'll answer your 1 question even though it's now been answered twice in this thread. Unless you personally every single time immediately use that 5 minutes to make more than 3k worth of gil before your next event that you wouldn't have had the time to do without that 5 minutes then you've gained absolutely nothing.

Same goes for taking an extra 5 minutes for 1 alexandrite depriving you of a 5 minute opportunity you no longer have for that day / period of time due to the increased farming time for 1 alexandrite.

You can't throw out hypothetical gil values for time when the time saved is perishable, not cumulative as I've already stated very clearly. It's impossible and illogical. You are REQUIRED to use the time saved in a proactive way that you did not have access to without the aforementioned time in order for it to actually change ANYTHING.

I've said it, Thorny has said it, you just don't understand it.

Why can that 5 minutes not be spent on something else? Presumably everyone has an opinion on what 5 minutes is worth out of game, what 5 minutes is worth farming gil, what 5 minutes is worth posting on BG, and what 3k gil is worth. If someone would rather post on BG than get 5 minutes worth of gil (which I'm calling as >3k), does that not also imply that they would rather post on BG than get an extra alexandrite? Everything has a relative value/opportunity cost, including tabbing out and posting on BG. You don't -have- to use the time to farm gil to make the time a more valuable commodity than an alexandrite.

Also, Thorny is pointing out a very specific scenario where there is a King camp after Ein, don't have time to swap jobs, don't have white mage, and don't have anything else to do with their time. I agree that if your only goal in the game is gil, there are times that 5minutes is negligible. But time has a value that you are tossing to the side. I guess in the end it is opinion - you feel time has no value, I feel that time does have a value, and while I can't quantify it, I would rather afk for 5 minutes than have 3k gil, universally. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing the game, but I don't see how you can say time is valueless. I'm just saying bare minimum, that time is worth more than an alex IF you want it to be.