The Roles of a Pugilist? [DISCUSSION]

[Leonhart]

[NOTE: This is taken from my thread off of FFXIV Vault, before thinking about BlueGartr. My thread is located here. Since this site is more popular, well... Must I say more?]

As I had looked at the current abilities released on the Pugilist, I began thinking that the role is extending from one to many. In another topic, Pugilist Info Compilation, I had seen FerrumGuy's post and found his opinion to be in line with mine:

Would Pugilist be considered an evasion tank if the main tank died or do they have some way to avoid spike damage? Might work in a pinch when the MT is KO'd, you pop cooldowns while the healer rez's the MT. If your lucky the MT pulls agro off of you before your abilities expire otherwise you can take a dirt nap proud that the party recovered.

However, in a case when you cant find a MT can a Pugilist be considered a tank or does he not have enough avoidance and absorption to do the job?

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Now that I have established the grounds of discussion, here is my hypothesis: Based on the abilities that we currently know, the Pugilist will take on the roles of a damage dealer and a secondary tank.

Let's look at some evidence, in terms of being a secondary tank.

A. According to the DEV TEAM's comments, they do not have a high defense, as if they are Final Fantasy XI's Ninja (NIN) job. However, NIN was well known for their evasion and Utsusemi Ninjutsu. Iwao states that "they are tricky fighters who can tease the enemy with their wide range of abilities," as well as, "If you continue to use the same stance, the number of things you can do while in that stance will increase." Sato states that "Stance will make a huge difference."

B. Weapon Skills. Jarring Strike (If used after a missed enemy attack, your next attack will hit and bind the enemy but also anger them) and Haymaker (If used after a missed enemy attack, you can do heavy damage to the enemy) are the two damaging skills that appears to be highly of use for gaining/keeping enmity.

C. Abilities. Whistle (Gain the attention of the enemy) and Feather Step (Increase evasion by a large amount for one shot). Perhaps Steal will have a hidden effect of an increasing enmity factor, considering nobody likes getting their pockets picked! However, let us go with what we know so far.

D. Our lovely picture in regards to stances:
http://www.ffxivvault.com/gallery/im...1&image_id=387

Now let us combine the evidence I had pointed out in a group battle scenario. With what we know, the defensive stance's abilities will be enhanced over time unless the Pugilist chooses to switch to an offensive stance. Considering that we do not know how the enhancement will be triggered (i.e. it could be time, number of battles, number of times hit, etc.), let us assume that the enhancement factor is time. For the sake of this example, let us say that based on the image from my fourth point, the highest defensive level is 3.

Level in terms of minutes
Level 1: 0:00 - 4:59
Level 2: 5:00 - 14:59
Level 3: 15:00+

So as soon as we're in the group, we start the defensive stance. Considering from past experiences of MMORPGs (especially FFXI and WoW), it can be hard to find a tank. Unless the group is formed with the tank as one of the founding fathers, it should take about five to ten minutes to form the group, so we are at Level 2 for certain. Another five minutes to get the group situated and at the spot, you'll be very close to Level 3. In summary, the defensive stance will be easy to achieve!

Considering that Whistle is like the Provoke job ability obtained by Warriors in FFXI, this is how the Pugilist will keep the enemy's attention. With the enhanced defensive stance, they will be able to evade more, which will work in hand with the Weapon Skill Jarring Strike. Perhaps Whistle is on cool down and your group mates are getting whacked hard. BAM! Use Jarring Strike to get back that hate and fire off another Whistle.

At all times, use Feather Step to keep yourself from getting hit! With the boost in evasion, use Jarring Strike to keep hate or can either mix it up with a Haymaker. Of course, a battle shouldn't last forever, so I would prefer using Haymaker to make the battle go faster and relying on Whistle. In my opinion, I would heavily rely on Jarring Strike if dealing with a boss-like monster (in FFXI terms, a NM/HNM) or if the group has unexpected company; a link (an extra monster that aggros).

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Let's look at some evidence, in terms of being a damage dealer.

A. Once again, stances are important. Enhanced offense... Must I say more?

B. Weapon Skills. Piercing Fists (Piercing attack. If done in succession, the chances of a critical hit increases) and Tackle (A rapid succession of attacks) appears to be your number one forms of damage dealing skills based on the enemy's weakness (piercing, blunt, and slashing). Haymaker makes another mention in this, in case the Pugilist takes hate and evades an attack (especially if using Feather Step!).

C. Abilities. Blind Side (Increased damage when you attack from behind the enemy) makes it sound like the Thief's Sneak Attack from FFXI. Can be a killer combination if used with weapon skills. A nice thought:

Feather Step => Whistle => [Evade an attack] => [The tank gains hate right away, i.e. Gladiator's Waving Tip] => Blind Side => Haymaker

A beautiful thought, yes?

I really don't have to explain how to damage deal, do I?

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Your opinions?

[OdinBlaize]

Would a 2-handed whistle generate double the enmity of a 1-handed whistle? This could honestly make or break the game.

[Kirbyprime]

Since the game is already out and there's over 3 million players I can 100% tell you that Pugilist is the ultimate evasion tank and is highly wanted in every endgame cock. Yes, that's what linkshells are called in FFXIV retail, cocks.

[Orden]

Since the game is already out and there's over 3 million players I can 100% tell you that Pugilist is the ultimate evasion tank and is highly wanted in every endgame cock. Yes, that's what linkshells are called in FFXIV retail, cocks.

I see what you did there.

I am sad I was beaten to it.

Edit: Gonna add. There are threads with discussion on all aspects of FFXIV and they are hardly bustling; Making such a specific thread before the game is out or more information comes out is just a practice in futility.

[Plow]

It's a monk.


Filling in the game's general rogue role.


I wouldn't expect it to tank any more or less than FFXI monks.

[Kirb]

I wouldn't expect it to tank any more or less than FFXI monks.

XI monks didn't have a focus on offensive and defense stances and a voke, though.

I wouldn't rule it out just yet.

[Maguspk]

The 'leveling' of the two stances will most likely be a skill level not a level with regards to time.

[Hyan]

One of it's WS's also generate enmity. If evasion is any better in this game than it is in XI, it wouldn't be that farfetched to see PUG's tank.

[Ksandra]

I can only hope they can be main tanks rather than just off tanks, or we're back to looking for a tank for 10 hours again.

[Plow]

Counterstance? Dodge/Focus? lol2handkick? Boost spam?

I mean yeah, they're making obvious changes with every melee having some kind of significant defensive capability, but rather it depends on stances or not, it's the same basic concept as FFXI monk.

Defensively you'll dodge a lot, work with high hp, paper armor, real focus is DD.

[Galkaeater]

I speculate that he punches things and does damage to them

[Correction]

I speculate that he punches things and does damage to them

The most informative post in this thread so far.

[Syntex]

People keep mentioning defense like it might be a significant change when we still don't know. In 11 the damage taken between the classes was quite minimal and only changed a lot when you looked at the abilties/buffs/gear(a shield vs not having one) then the actual defense of the gear.

I mean we have seen how many classes tank in 11? Brd mnk nin rdm war pld drg whm sam ect and not all were designed for it. Also we don't know how subjobs will work if they even use them because I haven't personally heard anything on this.

[Alderaan]

Hopefully defense actually means something this time or it wont really matter who tanks.

[Yoli]

I kind of liked how people were able to tank with non-tank jobs in ffxi. Mazurka tanking was silly, because it was just abusing a broken hate mechanic, but I think it was really neat that rdms and whms could tank, or you could nin/drk tank, (and all the other various combinations).

I used to have a salvage ls that would monk tank the chariots when that came out, and we did fairly well. And it was neat seeing them get a chance to do that.

As far as pugilist, there's clearly some +enm abilities around. How strong they, and what they're really meant to do, is anyone's guess still. Is it more something that's meant to be "subbed" on gladiator, to add to their +enm, or do they have enough evasion (or something) to tank meaningful non 3-person xp mobs on their own? I wouldn't be shocked if they /could/ tank xp mobs. Honestly, I'd be more shocked if people would let them if they were slightly subpar at it.

I'm a bit skeptical that SE will design the class as one that's meant to be used against bigger things. But who knows - their design and ideas people come up with don't always match. And sometimes that's for the best. (... and sometimes not).

[Agito]

Pugilist will be a very effective tank in party versus enemy party situations, they lack defense but they have high evasion and gain additional abilities when the defensive stance is at full power. If they can tank something compareable to the strongest HNMs is solely up to the quality of the defensive abilities and their ability to dodge attacks. In any situation, i believe that this class will be able to perform the vital role of tanking if things get out of hand and your Gladiator hits the floor. As for right now, it's impossible speculation that's owned by everyone's opinion as to whether the Pugilist will be an effective tank and what they can or can't tank.

[McGoonagle]

Also we don't know how subjobs will work if they even use them because I haven't personally heard anything on this.

There will be no subjobs. You have 10 ability slots and 5 abilities native to your class according to SEs descriptions. You can select any abilities you have at a suitable level to fill those other five slots. It can be thought of as subjob+1, but it's way more flexible than job/subjob.

[Plow]

Have you guys played warhammer? Think marauder, white lion, etc. Even the rangers in that game have taunts and dodge stances. It's all extremely similar to your basic monk, samurai, etc. model of having basic tanking capabilities, but being dd's primarily.

[Meresgi]

Is it so hard to think that perhaps their "on enemy missed attack, you fuck slam them" are just for use in solo or duo play? Maybe you're grouped with a caster buddy and don't want them tanking all the mobs.

Not to mention some of their 'defensive' abilities will most likely be something to toggle if you pull threat, so you don't get laid out instantly...as you're just wearing leather and cloth scraps on your body.

This does not mean they will be a tank. Look at WoW, Hunters have a taunt...are they tanks? (in anything other then a gimmick fight)

[Plow]

hunter's don't have a taunt but yeah it's semantics, they have a way to make stuff look at them

it's more along the lines of what I expect here, being able to survive in salvage, ein, etc., or being able to grab attention for a sec while your tank gets topped off etc.