The Roles of a Pugilist? [DISCUSSION]

[Khamsin]

I'd say the role of a pugilist will most likely be DD. Without utsusemi, it won't be able to survive let alone maintain hate when it keeps getting hit. I doubt the evasion stance will let them evade much more than an evade-build MNK in FFXI.

What I'm more interested in, is which job will be the best at claiming.

[Plow]

if the blm's cone thingy is instant it will be for sure

[BRP]

Really mods?

[Khamsin]

Really mods?

I mean... bad speculators!

The rules are kinda lax at the moment until more concrete info starts becoming available. Even if it is a little silly to assume what a job's role will be before even knowing the mechanics of the game.

Since anything is possible at the moment, consider threads like these simple mind exercises to pass the time.

[Rokku]

The 'leveling' of the two stances will most likely be a skill level not a level with regards to time.

Actually, in his defense, they specifically said at one point that stances would level as you stayed in them, and then reset to 1 whenever you changed stance.

[Syntex]

It's too early to tell how they will do items yet and if HNM and the claim system will stick to the ff11 ways.

I see them doing some instances HNM and some force pop NM's like zeni or sky with some free pop ones like some of the other NMs in sky will be a good combination.

[Leonhart]

I mean... bad speculators!

Chuckles. I actually asked if I was overstepping any boundaries by doing this. Sonomaa increased my post count to start this.

I can only hope they can be main tanks rather than just off tanks, or we're back to looking for a tank for 10 hours again.

I definitely agree. WoW kinda fixed this with the cross-server instances, excluding the 10man and 25man instances. However, this isn't WoW.

If anything, I'm sure that people will find a way to make things happen. After all, I remember MNK tanking Salvage a long time ago (with the help of Utsusemi though).

Defensively you'll dodge a lot, work with high hp, paper armor, real focus is DD.

Remember what they said about NINs at first? Years later after being introduced, SE had finally accepted them as tanks instead of a DD/RDM-like class. The fact that Pugilists could be a form of tank isn't a possibility that should be thrown out the window. I will agree with you that the primary focus should be DD however.

I speculate that he punches things and does damage to them

Do not forget about throwing chakrams!

I wouldn't be shocked if they /could/ tank xp mobs. Honestly, I'd be more shocked if people would let them if they were slightly subpar at it.

One thing that I am surprised, compared to XI's MNKs, is that they do not have a Counter ability just yet. If it is implemented and has the same design, it would be a very effective trait to have for tanking. I guess all we can do is wait and see.

People keep mentioning defense like it might be a significant change when we still don't know. In 11 the damage taken between the classes was quite minimal and only changed a lot when you looked at the abilties/buffs/gear(a shield vs not having one) then the actual defense of the gear.

Agreed. Also, we do not know what kind of combat abilities will be available for us just yet. Imagine if Guard makes a return to the game, but we're able to level it up easier or able to put points into the skill to make it easier to obtain (kinda like EQ).

[Plow]

Remember what they said about NINs at first? Years later after being introduced, SE had finally accepted them as tanks instead of a DD/RDM-like class. The fact that Pugilists could be a form of tank isn't a possibility that should be thrown out the window. I will agree with you that the primary focus should be DD however.

Well, to be honest, if you really think they're going to blow shit on the level they did with NIN again, I'm not sure why you'd play 14 lol.

That aside, the fact that the pugilist is also filling the rogue role implies to me that the tanking is very much going to be a small group kind of thing, and not something you want to be basing your big kill attempts around.

[Vacht]

Hmm, so... thinking out loud here...

So are these 5 ability slots supposed to be like a create your own subjob type of deal? Itd be cool to make any class have all rogue-like abilities. But I feel it coming on... "Pugilist looking for party with Ability 1, 2, 3 ,4 and 5 that every person desires, send /tell"

Which would mean that we have to level other jobs to get those abilities for those other slots. SE is clever to be able to approach this completely different but still retain a similar feel as XI. Subjobs were awesome.

[Sho]

I'd say the role of a pugilist will most likely be DD. Without utsusemi, it won't be able to survive let alone maintain hate when it keeps getting hit. I doubt the evasion stance will let them evade much more than an evade-build MNK in FFXI.

What I'm more interested in, is which job will be the best at claiming.

I hope they never add utsusemi to this game in any shape or form. Really messed up the mentality and PT schematics.

[Khamsin]

I hope they never add utsusemi to this game in any shape or form. Really messed up the mentality and PT schematics.

Instead of the "We need a PLD" mentality, it turned into "We need a NIN" mentality? And then into "We need a /NIN" mentality, then into "We need a PLD" mentality again, with /NINs still being able to hold their own?

It opened up more options, in my opinion. If SE were to remove utsusemi today, our only choice would once again be PLD-onry.

[Leonhart]

Yes, but aren't Lancers a mix of Rogue and Samurai as well, Plow?

To me, Vacht, it appears that FFXIV will be like a mixture of Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX. With the armory system and assigning ability roles to your character, your character will have an endless amount of character builds.

And shut up, Shokox.

[Sho]

Instead of the "We need a PLD" mentality, it turned into "We need a NIN" mentality? And then into "We need a /NIN" mentality, then into "We need a PLD" mentality again, with /NINs still being able to hold their own?

It opened up more options, in my opinion. If SE were to remove utsusemi today, our only choice would once again be PLD-onry.

No way to balance, it's either PLD-onry or NIN|/NIN onry. I wouldn't mind if the made this game a lil more defense oriented amongst all melee jobs.

[Leonhart]

Don't you mean NIN/WAR?

[Plow]

Yes, but aren't Lancers a mix of Rogue and Samurai as well, Plow?

The lancer is a very distinct role in FF games, it is what it is.

[Leonhart]

Without the ability to Jump, so far. :/

[Vacht]

Yes, but aren't Lancers a mix of Rogue and Samurai as well, Plow?

To me, Vacht, it appears that FFXIV will be like a mixture of Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX. With the armory system and assigning ability roles to your character, your character will have an endless amount of character builds.

And shut up, Shokox.

That sounds about right... man, I loved tactics and FF9. I wonder if SE took to this because they know these are some of peoples favorites of all time. Anyone else think 8 and 9 were better than 7? Hell they were all good lol.

[niwaar]

Instead of the "We need a PLD" mentality, it turned into "We need a NIN" mentality? And then into "We need a /NIN" mentality, then into "We need a PLD" mentality again, with /NINs still being able to hold their own?

It opened up more options, in my opinion. If SE were to remove utsusemi today, our only choice would once again be PLD-onry.

Well, you have to remember that originally SE didn't plan on the "main tank" role. Paladin was a DD job (hence the GS skillsets). It wasn't until months into the game proper that people started to use a main tank. Players made Paladins the tanking class due to its armor and the ability to use healing as a threat mechanic. It was only then that SE adapted to what players were doing.

They did the same thing with Ninja. Just to a FAR FAR FAR lesser extent. Ninja has gone through so many minor changes but we are still pretty much the same as always. The evasion tank that can push a decent amount of DPS out there, but not near as much as other classes. There have been several attempts to make viable Ninja caster prototypes but none have really stuck.

Both Warriors and Monks have skillsets that help in tanking. Both are actually capable of tanking for party play. They have stated that they are going to give both classes a bit more defensive abilities. The game needed a solid tertiary tanking class with the advent of WotG but only got dancer.

With XIV we will really not know what classes are the true tanking classes until we really get into the game. Two classes have "provoke" so far. However, we don't know nearly enough on how characters will mature and evolve. We know of the "armory system" but not exactly how we will "level up" and gain strength and abilities. Its too early to wonder what a single classes true role will be. The only thing we can say for sure is that SE is trying hard to make sure every melee class is a hybrid of some sort. Either pure DPS/Tank or DPS/Support, etc.

[Agito]

Square Enix is making each class capable of multiple roles but the role that they are the most proficent in will be more powerful than their other roles. Pugilist will be the most proficent in damage dealing and they can certainly tank something compareable IT regular monsters if they give up some of their damage output to use the defensive stance but they probably won't be in the tank party versus the HNMs of FFXIV. For a Pugilist to be equal to a Gladiator for tanking will definately not be the case here. There's going to be the whole party versus enemy party thing and bringing along multiple classes that are capable of tanking will probably be a good idea.

[Kirb]

I hope they never add utsusemi to this game in any shape or form. Really messed up the mentality and PT schematics.

Seconded. Maybe a stoneskin tank or something, but not shadows.

Also a defense formula that doesn't blow.