Relic Augments

[Anomander]

Interesting theory but im... Relic ws dont seem heavily influenced by stat atmas, unlike empy. i havent played in a while but i bet att / str atmas do SHIT for kaiten, thus it freaking sucks. somebody with the triple and da atmas should do some 90 kaiten tests tho. WTH IS FAILURE.

This is not really correct. The difference between my kaitens and a friends (both of us had the 85 version) was very very noticeable, due to me having superior atmas. He has since gotten the atma's he was missing and now the averages are very close. Granted, it would probably be worth dropping SA for the big triple attack atma, but I haven't yet had a chance to test it out.

[Nightmarelord]

This is not really correct. The difference between my kaitens and a friends (both of us had the 85 version) was very very noticeable, due to me having superior atmas. He has since gotten the atma's he was missing and now the averages are very close. Granted, it would probably be worth dropping SA for the big triple attack atma, but I haven't yet had a chance to test it out.

That doesnt excuse the fact that masamune shits all over amano currently. And if se doesnt do something big, Masamune will continue to shit all over amano and kaiten. i highly doubt you're pulling off 6k kaitens.

[Darkmagi]

You act like you are going to be normally pulling off 6k Fudos. You sound like a complete moron and clearly have no understanding of game mechanics if you think attack/str isn't helping Kaiten like it is Fudo. Sorry, your posts just really annoyed me.

[Nightmarelord]

You act like you are going to be normally pulling off 6k Fudos. You sound like a complete moron and clearly have no understanding of game mechanics if you think attack/str isn't helping Kaiten like it is Fudo. Sorry, your posts just really annoyed me.

YOUMAD.gif

I've seen no data that supports "FUDO FAILS AGAINST ALL THINGS THAT HAVE MODERATE DEFENSE" (this is the case with kaiten pre 90) Maybe im still living in the past...

Are people getting masa / +1/+2 and spamming gekko?

Coulda swore "game mechanics" suggest that kaiten was typically a waste on anything with def.

Inb4 lolwiki and lolstr on kaiten


Properties[edit]
Element: None
Skillchain Properties: Light/Fragmentation
Modifiers: STR:60% (its a trap, att or gtfo)
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
3.00 3.00 3.00

Fudo


Element: None
Skillchain Properties: Light/Distortion
Modifiers: (str obv)
Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
3.65 5.75

How is my game mechanics off? it seems pretty clear that SE took more time to pay attn to mods of fudo and how it worked, unlike kaiten (and many other relic ws... remember the catastrophe nerf) fail bc of some mystery lack of game mechanics knowledge?

[Darkmagi]

protip: Fudo is basically kaiten +1 with a damage based on tp mod. It is obviously heavily dependent on attack because it doesn't get a pdif boost like YGK. You will almost always have 900+ attack pre-buffer in abyssea while /war so it's obviously not a major issue except on certain NMs. (Rani post-PDT I see a considerable increase in damage by using Gekko over Fudo, not that sam would be the ideal job for this)

[Malacite]

Anyone gotten an Empyrean Shield yet? The .dats list it as a size 6, so it's actually bigger than Aegis. Curious to see how the block rate/damage reduction compares.

[Atomic Skull]

So how exactly does a WS damage +25% modifier compare with increasing the damage multiplier? Better, worse or no difference?

[Kirschy]

So how exactly does a WS damage +25% modifier compare with increasing the damage multiplier? Better, worse or no difference?

If it affected fTP, then items like gorget/belt which affect fTP would give a lower increase. If it's the same term as overwhelm and DMG+% augments like MKD, then Kaiten gets a lower increase when overwhelm is active. 1.19 -> 1.44 becomes a ~21% increase. If it's a completely separate term then everything pretti much stays the same (which seems to be the case given the numbers posted.)

[Malacite]

maths

So tl;dr version = relic owners can stop QQ? Especially since SE is likely to lower dynamis entry costs based on that Q&A (easier trials yay).

Or do Empyreans still just totally shit on them because of how OP Ukko's/Victory/Jishnu/Fudo etc are? (And the ODD)

[Fievel]

So tl;dr version = relic owners can stop QQ? Especially since SE is likely to lower dynamis entry costs based on that Q&A (easier trials yay).

Or do Empyreans still just totally shit on them because of how OP Ukko's/Victory/Jishnu/Fudo etc are? (And the ODD)

I can promise you Smite still rapes Final Heaven

[NynJa]

So tl;dr version = relic owners can stop QQ? Especially since SE is likely to lower dynamis entry costs based on that Q&A (easier trials yay).

Or do Empyreans still just totally shit on them because of how OP Ukko's/Victory/Jishnu/Fudo etc are? (And the ODD)

Empyrans WS is still stronger
Aftermath ODD rapes the shit out of most relic aftermaths
Aftermath ODD also makes the 5% 3x dmg laughable, not to mention being able to proc on WS.
Relics still look nicer?

[Anomander]

Empyrans WS is still stronger
Aftermath ODD rapes the shit out of most relic aftermaths
Aftermath ODD also makes the 5% 3x dmg laughable, not to mention being able to proc on WS.
Relics still look nicer?

Pretty much the truth. When I posted earlier in response to Nightmarelord I was in no means trying to suggest that Amano was suddenly better than Masamune. Fudo will still outdo kaiten (although not by as much, and as was stated earlier it is affected by attack just as much as kaiten) but the real difference comes down to the aftermath. The difference is even more profound for weapons where the relic weaponskill isn't very powerful (Spharai comes to mind, although there are others).

However, I wasn't aware that the ODD was able to proc on weaponskills.

[Kirschy]

Empyrans WS is still stronger
Aftermath ODD rapes the shit out of most relic aftermaths
Aftermath ODD also makes the 5% 3x dmg laughable, not to mention being able to proc on WS.
Relics still look nicer?

This mostly. Relic AMs are a bit more versatile. (ie; A DRK can swap out Haste for options like DA+, Acc, Attack, etc.. A SAM can swap out sTP for options for Haste, etc... WAR gets Damage Taken -, etc...) But let's be honest, most of us would rather have higher damage output than the ability to versatile.
I think relic proc rate is closer to 1/12 (~8.3%) and doesn't require aftermath. Emp's get 30% but requires AM. In some cases like Dagger or GKT Relics get 3.0x or 2.5x modifiers compared to 2.0 modifier on Empyreans, but there's no doubt Empyrean ODD has a greater output than the hidden Relic Procs.
There's also the whole in/out of Abyssea issue. In Abyssea many Empyrean WS are boosted due to being crit and having great mods. Outside Abyssea many of the WS will be much closer with the relics WS gaining 25%. In most cases the Empyrean WS still wins out.
Lastly is the upkeep rate. Relics will probably require 5 Fragment Kills next update which will take ~2-3 weeks, 6-8hrs/week depending on if you do a low-man group or go /w a shell. Empyrean Lv90s require a LOT more effort and work to maintain.

EDIT: I missed that you said ODD can proc on WS. This is not true, it only procs during melee hits~

[Ayn]

So tl;dr version = relic owners can stop QQ? Especially since SE is likely to lower dynamis entry costs based on that Q&A (easier trials yay).

The entry cost for Dynamis is hardly the prohibitive factor in relic owners finishing the trials.

That aside, while it isn't putting them on par with Empyreans, it is nice to see the WSes (many of which were outdone by previously existing WSes) getting a boost. I do wish they'd bring the aftermath duration back to what it used to be. That change was stupid.

[Malacite]

I can promise you Smite still rapes Final Heaven

Final Heaven was always trash though? It'd be better to compare a Spharai using Ascetic's Fury I would think? (at least inside abyssea with crit buffs)

The point about lowered Entry cost is it would make it a lot easier to lowman Dyna & increase individual profits while quite likely lowering currency rates due to increased supply. Plus I mean how easy is dyna at 90 anyway? Should make getting those trials done much less of a hassle if they drop it to 100k or something.

It'd be nice if they'd increase the proc rate on the Super Crits. Has anyone even gotten a 90 Empyrean Shield or Harp yet? I'm really curious to see how the Harp stacks up vs Horn.


It looks like the Harp wins in most cases since SV +3 songs = crazy, with the only exception of Ballad. This is because even though you can tack on 3 of them, because of Ballad's already low values each of those +1's has a massive impact. The Harp would need a native +2 at the least to even be comparable.

But the question is = is this even relevant given how fast you can recover MP in Abyssea? There's no garauntees one way or the other, but SE did hint at more abyssea zones in 1 of the CS with Gilgamesh in the Hall of the Gods so they could very well have more add-ons they just haven't announced. If they don't though, would Gjallar still remain the better choice for a BRD?

What if it goes up to 4 songs for the 99 version? I can definitely see that happening (along with Ghorn maxing at +4, +5 feels like a stretch).

[Fievel]

Final Heaven was always trash though? It'd be better to compare a Spharai using Ascetic's Fury I would think?

Maybe I'm just totally misunderstanding, but the 25% damage increase only applies to relic WS, so in Spharai's case the WS would be Final Heaven, so there would be no change in the dmg on Ascetic's Fury making Vere still shit on Spharai damage wise.

[Kirschy]

It looks like the Harp wins in most cases since SV +3 songs = crazy, with the only exception of Ballad. This is because even though you can tack on 3 of them, because of Ballad's already low values each of those +1's has a massive impact. The Harp would need a native +2 at the least to even be comparable.

But the question is = is this even relevant given how fast you can recover MP in Abyssea? There's no garauntees one way or the other, but SE did hint at more abyssea zones in 1 of the CS with Gilgamesh in the Hall of the Gods so they could very well have more add-ons they just haven't announced. If they don't though, would Gjallar still remain the better choice for a BRD?

What if it goes up to 4 songs for the 99 version? I can definitely see that happening (along with Ghorn maxing at +4, +5 feels like a stretch).

This is a common misconception I keep seeing. The Empyrean Harp atm is near crap. It allows a third song which will be lacking the potency of using a +2/+3 instrument. (ie; A victory march that's missing ~4.5% haste. A Valor Minuet V which is worse than Valor Minuet IV using a correct instrument, etc...) Yea an extra song is always nice, but it ends up being an extra 50 attack for melee (after they get 2 marches from a real instrument), and an extra 1MP/tic using Mage's Ballad I (after they get 2 ballads from a real instrument.) The harp is unique and has some cool uses, but anyone who would spend their time getting one over a Gjallar is just silly. Also, with Gjallar having the only source of +3 to Marches, it's by far and large the best instrument in the game. Thats an extra 3% on 2x marches, which I'm sure most can tell you is one hell of an improvement. (Way more than an extra 2mp/tic on your ballads.)

[Aristio]

Theoretically, couldn't you just swap out Harp for the first two songs, then swap in Harp for the third?

[NynJa]

However, I wasn't aware that the ODD was able to proc on weaponskills.

I thought the reason EmpWS's spiked up to 5-6k was because of ODD procing on ws...they really naturally deal 5-6k at times on their own? >.>

[Guitarman]

I thought the reason EmpWS's spiked up to 5-6k was because of ODD procing on ws...they really naturally deal 5-6k at times on their own? >.>

they can. Buddy's WoE weapon Victory Smite hits for 5500 fairly often.