Relic Augments

[FailureMidgard]

Yeah, sorry dude. I'm not taking the word for anyone who thinks having three gimp songs from empry harpe is better than two super buffed songs from horn.

edit: lolz

...you should go back and read my posts page 102-103 (1 page back). Also, I realize you probably don't understand the mechanics of your own job you have a relic for, but it's almost definitely 2 songs with a "normal instrument (+2 march, +1 ballad) and 1 "gimp" song. Sadly, in most situations, this will beat ghorn. It also has more versatility, and more potential in the coming updates with the introduction of possibly more new songs.

[Darkmagi]

Malacite is obviously retarded but the reason you just called him out for was equally retarded. Obviously Ghorn is superior for marches, but the empy harp will have various useful applications. March + march + scherzo, etc. Obvious answer is to get both and suck less™ though.

[Lovex]

...you should go back and read my posts page 102-103 (1 page back). Also, I realize you probably don't understand the mechanics of your own job you have a relic for, but it's almost definitely 2 songs with a "normal instrument (+2 march, +1 ballad) and 1 "gimp" song. Sadly, in most situations, this will beat ghorn. It also has more versatility, and more potential in the coming updates with the introduction of possibly more new songs.

Has it been confirmed you can even switch it out for the third song? Sure, that would be better if you could sing with normal instruments for the first two and then switch in the harpe for the third. I know reading isn't your strong point so I'll give you a break. I never said anything about that. Malacite has said the harpe is in fact superior to horn, and unless you can sing with normal instruments then swap the harpe in for the added song effect, it is not. As i said, I have not seen or read anything that says it works that way. Your welcome to link me to a test. Otherwise, learn to read and stop assuming.

Besides, even if you can do that, I'm still right in that the harpe is NOT superior. Sure, couples with a handful of instruments only to macro it in after you sing the first two, it would be. I was looking at it from a point of view that the harpe by itself is not better and it isn't. Seeing as I stated I hadnt seen proof you could use it the way you suggested, it shouldn't be too hard to understand what I saying. Not even for a tool like you.

[chazzyphizzle]

i am pretty sure bard can only use certain daggers

[fredjanx]

i am pretty sure bard can only use certain daggers

Womandau.

[FailureMidgard]

Has it been confirmed you can even switch it out for the third song?

Has it been confirmed you can't? One assumption has a basis in the normal functionality of the bard job, the other has no basis whatsoever except in the mind of a ghorn owner who wants the harp to not be better.

I know reading isn't your strong point so I'll give you a break.

And as much as I think Malacite is kinda retarded, you may want to re-read his post, at least the one I responded to, if you're going to try to shit-talk me about reading. Here, I'll help you out:

Spoiler: show

It looks like the Harp wins in most cases since SV +3 songs = crazy, with the only exception of Ballad. This is because even though you can tack on 3 of them, because of Ballad's already low values each of those +1's has a massive impact. The Harp would need a native +2 at the least to even be comparable.

But the question is = is this even relevant given how fast you can recover MP in Abyssea? There's no garauntees one way or the other, but SE did hint at more abyssea zones in 1 of the CS with Gilgamesh in the Hall of the Gods so they could very well have more add-ons they just haven't announced. If they don't though, would Gjallar still remain the better choice for a BRD?

What if it goes up to 4 songs for the 99 version? I can definitely see that happening (along with Ghorn maxing at +4, +5 feels like a stretch).

Spoiler: show

Assuming BRD gets a 3rd march (and it probably will, might not come until final level cap but I'm sure we'll get it) wouldn't that just skew things in favor of the harp even more? Unless they boost Ghorn to +4 I don't see it staying competitive at 99, especially if the final harp allows for 4 songs.

Is your claim of what you say he stated even fucking written somewhere? Or are you the one that's in fact, not reading? I guess I'm sorry for assuming you had the reading comprehension to understand what Malacite wrote. My bad if there's some hidden post from 3 weeks ago where he actually stated what you think he did. My response was in the frame of the past 3 pages of discussion, which seems quite reasonable.

Malacite has said the harpe is in fact superior to horn

I'm not even seeing that quote except UNDER SOUL VOICE, which it most definitely -destroys- ghorn when SV is active, oh right, and assuming there's a 3rd march also...in which case again, ghorn isn't even competing.

and unless you can sing with normal instruments then swap the harpe in for the added song effect, it is not. As i said, I have not seen or read anything that says it works that way. Your welcome to link me to a test. Otherwise, learn to read and stop assuming.

You do realize that -YOU- are assuming how it works here with 0 basis in the game. On the other hand, I'm assuming using in-game precedent. In other words, the safe assumption is mine, and the more "out there" assumption is yours. We are both assuming at the moment, and in fact, the only way to not assume is to flat out refuse to comment on a comparison, which you most definitely did not do.

Besides, even if you can do that, I'm still right in that the harpe is NOT superior.

Except it is, read my posts.

Sure, couples with a handful of instruments only to macro it in after you sing the first two, it would be. I was looking at it from a point of view that the harpe by itself is not better and it isn't. Seeing as I stated I hadnt seen proof you could use it the way you suggested, it shouldn't be too hard to understand what I saying. Not even for a tool like you.

The fuck? Go to Alla with that shit. Are you really so pampered by your Ghorn you can't gearswap anymore? Bard inventory so strenuous you can't carry the instruments that all the good bards do? I mean fuck, Walahra Turban obviously always sucked because it was only good -IF- you assumed a swap into WS gear? Same thing for Fumas or Usu Feet. Are you fucking seriously coming here and arguing that the requirement of gearswapping invalidates my claim? Get the fuck out of here. MAYBE if we were talking about getting 3 empyrean/relic/mythic quality items, you'd have an argument. But the fact of the matter is, these extra instruments are a total joke to get (<20k per on the AH, or pretty easy to get w/ a blue proc from Abyssea for the +3s/+1ballad) and what you are saying is inane. At least your refusal to acknowledge that the more likely scenario is that it works the same way as going from 1 song to an item that allows 2 songs still has some possibility of being relevant, but this statement is just beyond ridiculous.

[Malacite]

. _ . I'm not retarded, math's just not my strongsuit. And excuse me for referencing anecdotal sources. I'm not so stupid as to blindly believe everything I'm told, I was merely stating what I'd been told to see if anyone else could confirm. Good lord is it that hard to think for yourselves/draw logical conclusions without resorting to baseless, childish name calling?

Idk if I should be thanking FM or not for vaguely defending me either lol >.<;

I was just going on what was reported in the Empyrean Weapon thread, where someone had said Jishnu was busting 5~7k with 2/3 hits. If I have to I'll thumb through the god damned thread but I know someone posted at least 5600+ Jishnu's. Therefor, I don't see how it's all that much of a stretch to hit 9k or higher with lv 90 and the right gear/buffs. At the very least 7k+ should be possible, it's not like there isn't any precedent for it. Plus don't ranged attacks scale differently than melee? IIRC it's a 2:1 STR: DMG ratio right, where as melee is 4:1 ? I don't know all the exact mechanics (excuse me for not being a math buff) but I do know the calculations are different/suffer less penalties vs higher lv targets etc etc so I'm inclined to at least give it the benefit of the doubt.

Out of curiosity though, just how big of a gap is there now anyway even without Soul Voice on songs? The only songs that it would seem to make any major difference on are Ballad (due to extremely low base values) and March due to the geometric nature of haste. But if you're just piling on say, attack from minuet, wouldn't stacking 3 4 & 5 out perform a boosted 4 & 5? The Harpe also increases song duration as well. I'm willing to admit I could be wrong on this, but I sincerely doubt the extra little attack from +2/+3 would outstrip Minuet 3 - At the very least they should be near equal, until you pop SV anyway at which point the gap widens significantly.

But then again everyone keeps talking about how BRD can cap magic haste with just 1 march now (I'd like someone to explain this to me as I'm not seeing how 12.5% @ 600 skill + Haste spell = 43.75% >_>) though you can easily hit 40% with SV up which would then allow you to pile on Minuet 4 and 5. Now depending on total haste I guess the 2nd march may still be worth it at that point to cap out (assuming it makes the difference between hitting the 66%+ barrier) but still I'm not seeing how Ghorn wins here. You cap or nearly cap haste and get a shitload of attack added on... or even Scherzo, if you're worried about getting raped by high dmg attacks while pounding away.

[Eriaxa]

I'm doing consistant 4-8k (without 2 hour but likely AF3+2 proc on higher end damage) with Raging rush on most NM with 3 atma's (RR,VV and AoA) with my 85 Bravura. I could honestly see myself doing 10k+ on NMs too if everything proc's right with the 85 Bravura but I havent really had to chance to do testing because of LS events and my limited play time atm.

I was in Abyssea-Altepa yesterday and I was owning a level 90 emy GA on Fell Cleave ( plenty of 3k-4k+ kills on those orb mobs without 2 hour 6k+ w/2hour ). Maybe Bravura is an exception among the relics but I dont see why everyone was bitching. When I get the 90 Bravura in about 2 weeks I cant wait too see how much more consistant damage I will do.

[Mercilessturtle]

Maybe Bravura is an exception among the relics but I dont see why everyone was bitching.

Because they were comparing to people using the emp WS?

[Neisan]

Versus Metatron Torment no less, and an Ukon user isn't going to touch Raging when they have Ukko's. Bravura is a waste compared to Ukon since you're not even using the relic WS, although Bravura is still probably next best GA.

[Atomic Skull]

SE are so out of touch with how FFXI actually works that they probably think that the relic's "add an additional lvl 3 Skillchain" feature makes them better than Empyreans.


Now, if the next upgrade follows the path of the WS+damage weapons and next update is "any WS + damage" at say +40% that might allow certain relics to actually compete (Mandau with evisceration for example). Others though will still suck.

[Atomic Skull]

I was just going on what was reported in the Empyrean Weapon thread, where someone had said Jishnu was busting 5~7k with 2/3 hits. If I have to I'll thumb through the god damned thread but I know someone posted at least 5600+ Jishnu's. Therefor, I don't see how it's all that much of a stretch to hit 9k or higher with lv 90 and the right gear/buffs

And with a bunch of temp meds, and also on a fly, don't forget that.

I have done 5K+ mercy strokes but that doesn't mean that this is normal or that my average damage even comes close to that. Just because someone posts an epeen screenshot and claims that this represents their normal damage doesn't make it true.

but I do know the calculations are different/suffer less penalties vs higher lv targets etc etc so I'm inclined to at least give it the benefit of the doubt.

RNG has an ability called Flashy Shot that ignores level difference on the next shot and which doubles enmity and so guarantees a dirtnap on anything you would actually want to use it on what with RNGs being made out of wet cardboard and all. With maximum merits they can do this every 10 minutes although absolutely nobody ever wastes more than one merit on this, if they bother meriting it at all. So usually you'll only be able to do it every 20 minutes assuming you actually wasted a merit on this instead of something actually good. Basically it's a useless ability that is only good for making epeen screenshots. If somone is using this to get a 9k WS and claiming that this represents normal damage than that person is a god damned liar.

[EjinCaitsith]

I'm doing consistant 4-8k (without 2 hour but likely AF3+2 proc on higher end damage) with Raging rush on most NM with 3 atma's (RR,VV and AoA) with my 85 Bravura. I could honestly see myself doing 10k+ on NMs too if everything proc's right with the 85 Bravura but I havent really had to chance to do testing because of LS events and my limited play time atm.

I was in Abyssea-Altepa yesterday and I was owning a level 90 emy GA on Fell Cleave ( plenty of 3k-4k+ kills on those orb mobs without 2 hour 6k+ w/2hour ). Maybe Bravura is an exception among the relics but I dont see why everyone was bitching. When I get the 90 Bravura in about 2 weeks I cant wait too see how much more consistant damage I will do.

1) eyeballing WS average isn't accurate
2) AF3+2 doesn't proc on WS
3) 10K+ RR really?
4) lol@ eyeball parsing Fell Cleave.
5) math is hard, 131 dmg 15 str vs 124 dmg means your 85 brav would never win.
6) brav is probably the 3rd best weapon for war overall.
7) stop posting.

[Darkmagi]

SE are so out of touch with how FFXI actually works that they probably think that the relic's "add an additional lvl 3 Skillchain" feature makes them better than Empyreans.


Now, if the next upgrade follows the path of the WS+damage weapons and next update is "any WS + damage" at say +40% that might allow certain relics to actually compete (Mandau with evisceration for example). Others though will still suck.

Empyreans can add additional level 3 skillchains, unless you meant something else?

[Odin'sLaw]

i know this is relic weapons but has anyone tested how beastly Widow maker is yet? (comment on brav been the 3rd most powerful Great axe)

[Atoreis]

1) eyeballing WS average isn't accurate
2) AF3+2 doesn't proc on WS
3) 10K+ RR really?
4) lol@ eyeball parsing Fell Cleave.
5) math is hard, 131 dmg 15 str vs 124 dmg means your 85 brav would never win.
6) brav is probably the 3rd best weapon for war overall.
7) stop posting.

This.

8k RR is probably some very lucky triple + double proc and crits on all hits which happens like 1 of 300 WS or it was done on ironclad smiter after arm cannon :D

[Neisan]

He said Bravura is 3rd because 1st is Ukonvasara and Second is Maschu+2.

[Atomic Skull]

Has anyone checked to see if the +WS damage on the lvl 90 relics is affected by TP?

[Sehrahin]

I'm not too sure that Ukko's Fury alone on WoE Gaxe beats out Bravura.

[EjinCaitsith]

I'm not too sure that Ukko's Fury alone on WoE Gaxe beats out Bravura.

Last time Motenten ran numbers on war, going from RR to ukko's was about a 13% increase to overall damage. So, depends if 9 base damage and relic procs are enough to close that gap. You also lose the superior weaponskill properties Ukko's has.