Relic Augments

[Fievel]

OH THANK GOD PALADIN CAN TANK FOR ALL OF US FRAGILE DD AGAIN

[Obsidian]

SMN is the best class at pet burn, but is it also overpowered?

Saying something is easy then not giving a solution just makes your claim less credible. PLD DD+, it becomes overpowered because it has the DD potential of a melee and the survival of a PLD. If you employ a stance to restrict one of these, you basically make say to PLDs "Be a melee or be a gimp." If you make monsters that require PLDs, it will become one of those "necessary" classes I mentioned earlier (Oh noes! No PLD!).

Is pet burning the best way to do anything? The argument could be made that unkillable avatars are overpowered (or broken).

I gave you my solution; just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not viable. It's not overpowered, other jobs have much better survivability than PLD and are leagues ahead in DD potential. I'd also like to know why making a "tank" "required" is such a bad thing in the first place. Should all melee be able to heal themselves so a WHM isn't required? Should mages be able to melee so that DDs aren't required? Heavy DD jobs completely overshadow Paladin at its intended role while excelling at their own. Even if you made content that you can't /WAR and tank with your face, other jobs have far better tools at their disposal to mitigate the damage, hold hate better, and kill things faster. PLD is literally a useless job, and I don't see how you can say giving it a DD buff is overpowering when other jobs are much more well rounded.

[Yugl]

Is pet burning the best way to do anything? The argument could be made that unkillable avatars are overpowered (or broken).

The best job at anything is always called the overpowered job.

For some NMs it is, but that's besides the point since you never said the method had to be the best way. You just said a class had to be the best at something to be considered overpowered. 40

I gave you my solution; just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not viable.

The solution was about as specific/good as "Well, in order to fix it, you make changes such that it will be competitive."

It's not overpowered, other jobs have much better survivability than PLD

How do you figure that? I always thought general consensus was that PLD is a crutch for bad LSs because of its superior survival capabilities. Feel free to illustrate why you think differently.

I'd also like to know why making a "tank" "required" is such a bad thing in the first place.

If mobs are buffed to the extent that only a PLD can handle tanking them, it creates the burden of needing one whenever fighting said NM. I'm not sure about you, but needing a PLD to fight NMs doesn't sound like fun.

Even if you made content that you can't /WAR and tank with your face, other jobs have far better tools at their disposal to mitigate the damage, hold hate better, and kill things faster. PLD is literally a useless job, and I don't see how you can say giving it a DD buff is overpowering wheparn other jobs are much more well rounded.

You're mixing up two ideas. One idea makes PLD a tank again by making its DD potential rival other DDs. This is overpowered. The other idea is just making PLD into a DD, and to that idea, I just said it's lame.

[NynJa]

SMN is the best class at pet burn, but is it also overpowered?

I guess that makes PLD the best job at PLD burning...?
Utility should be considered when defining something as X burning, because pet burning fucking sucks. Its inefficient and its disgustingly slow.

It's not overpowered, other jobs have much better survivability than PLD and are leagues ahead in DD potential.

Any job has good survivability in abyssea...

[Obsidian]

For some NMs it is, but that's besides the point since you never said the method had to be the best way. You just said a class had to be the best at something to be considered overpowered.

A) I'd argue pet burning anything is never really the best way to do something, and B) If SMN completely overshadows every other pet job, then yeah, it's overpowered. If there's reason to take another pet job over SMN to specific things, then no, I wouldn't call it overpowered.

The solution was about as specific/good as "Well, in order to fix it, you make changes such that it will be competitive."

Actually I said buff its DD potential to make it competitive, which is about as specific as I can get without just rattling off potential job abilities and traits, but I don't really feel like pretending to be Malacite. If that's what you want then say so.

How do you figure that? I always thought general consensus was that PLD is a crutch for bad LSs because of its superior survival capabilities. Feel free to illustrate why you think differently.

Seigan/Third Eye, Counterstance, and utsusemi are the best ways to avoid damage (outside of just evading), and none of them are native to PLD. Shield block rate outside of Ochain is 50% at best. Unless you're a GSWD PLD you're not getting any use out of /SAM, /MNK is never practical, everyone can /NIN, and in order for PLD to hold hate in any situation you need your DDs to dumb themselves down because PLD lacks hate tools on respectable timers and the damage potential to hold hate that way. I submit anyone who genuinely thinks it's got the most survivability can't be bothered to buy a PDT set for their SAM or MNK.

If mobs are buffed to the extent that only a PLD can handle tanking them, it creates the burden of needing one whenever fighting said NM. I'm not sure about you, but needing a PLD to fight NMs doesn't sound like fun.

FFXI is a team oriented game. I'll ask again why "needing" a "tank" is bad. You "need" healers and DDs, why can't you make a (defensive) tank necessary? I have a feeling this would be less of an issue if there were more defensive-oriented jobs like PLD, but since PLD is basically in a niche of its own, you either need to make that niche useful or change the role of the job (to a more damage oriented one).

You're mixing up two ideas. One idea makes PLD a tank again by making its DD potential rival other DDs. This is overpowered. The other idea is just making PLD into a DD, and to that idea, I just said it's lame.

I don't really see how those are two separate ideas as they both result in the same thing (PLD being a competent damage dealer). The two options I see are making it a good DD or buffing its defensive abilities and adding content that necessitates those abilities. Apparently neither of those solutions are viable because you don't like them, so it seems we're at an impasse.

[Yugl]

I guess that makes PLD the best job at PLD burning...?
Utility should be considered when defining something as X burning, because pet burning fucking sucks. Its inefficient and its disgustingly slow.

PLD is the best at PLD burning. Would you argue otherwise? If not, then we don't disagree. Would you say it's overpowered because of that? If yes, then we disagree.

Actually I said buff its DD potential to make it competitive, which is about as specific as I can get without just rattling off potential job abilities and traits, but I don't really feel like pretending to be Malacite. If that's what you want then say so.

I don't see the difference between Malachite and "It's so easy if you just fix certain aspects."

Seigan/Third Eye, Counterstance, and utsusemi are the best ways to avoid damage (outside of just evading), and none of them are native to PLD. Shield block rate outside of Ochain is 50% at best. Unless you're a GSWD PLD you're not getting any use out of /SAM, /MNK is never practical, everyone can /NIN, and in order for PLD to hold hate in any situation you need your DDs to dumb themselves down because PLD lacks hate tools on respectable timers and the damage potential to hold hate that way. I submit anyone who genuinely thinks it's got the most survivability can't be bothered to buy a PDT set for their SAM or MNK.

I think you're mixing up defensive techniques and survivability. Utsusemi is the best survival tool. Third eye is random. Counterstance is good primarily because of the damage dealt and atmas. PDT works for PLD too. A lot of what you mentioned is not dealing with survival, but tanking, which is a completely different issue.

FFXI is a team oriented game. I'll ask again why "needing" a "tank" is bad. You "need" healers and DDs, why can't you make a (defensive) tank necessary? I have a feeling this would be less of an issue if there were more defensive-oriented jobs like PLD, but since PLD is basically in a niche of its own, you either need to make that niche useful or change the role of the job (to a more damage oriented one).

Needing to get a PLD is bad because it makes the game dependent on a single class. If you don't think dependency on a single class for everything is bad, then we'll just have to disagree.

I don't really see how those are two separate ideas as they both result in the same thing (PLD being a competent damage dealer). The two options I see are making it a good DD or buffing its defensive abilities and adding content that necessitates those abilities. Apparently neither of those solutions are viable because you don't like them, so it seems we're at an impasse.

It's the difference between making PLD the best DD and making PLD an average DD. An impasse is what I argued, so we agree on that outcome given certain criteria.

[Darkmagi]

I would say various fights now are dependent on having a WHM. I would like to say thf is a needed job as well.

[Bling]

The boost is a separate 1.25 modifier to the equation. The initial tests here showed that fTP wasn't changed at all. This is incredibly easy to see /w Laeden Salute (The Mythic Boost is only 15%), and slightly less obvious with the Kaiten results that were posted. If the fTP was changed, then the boost from gorgets would change respectively, which is why we know for sure.

What we don't know is if the 1.25 term is the same as WS DMG+ granted by Atma of the Griffon or WS DMG+% head piece. Would need someone with bow/gun to test it easily.

I finished bow tonight. I did some before and after tests, not sure how useful any of it is but thought it might help figure out where the 25% boost is. All shots done @5 yalms or feet or w/e it is to avoid true shot bonus except for the ones @10 yalms. True shot is 7% with traits and +2 legs. Anwig is str/ws acc and agi/ws damage (subbed in 4str/agi when not wearing).

85 Yoichi, antlion arrow, 114 str, 115 agi:
base - 2127
gorget - 2202
gorget and belt - 2277
gorget, belt, anwig - 2322
gorget, belt, anwig, @10 yalms - 2484

90 Yoichi, antlion arrow, same stats:
base - 2771
gorget - 2872
gorget and belt - 2970
gorget, belt, anwig - 3028
gorget, belt, anwig, @ 10 yalms - 3240

Looks like a straight increase across the board. Does that mean it's a separate term?

[Atomic Skull]

Increasing PLDs enmity cap so that they can actually hold hate would be a good start. The biggest problem with PLD is that it is absolutely impossible for them to hold hate because DD's cap hate in seconds just from melee swings.

EDIT: So they're going to buff Aegis but they think the lvl 90 relics are just fine. Fuck you SE.

[Malacite]

^ Yeah idk what's up with that... did they ever fix Yagrush 90 btw? Or is it still fucked up?


Seriously though would it kill SE to either just give PLD Provoke already, or some native job ability just like it but that's either on a shorter recast or builds CE rather than VE? I agree with the enmity cap as well, since jobs like MNK & NIN basically cap hate stupid fast from all the high damage crits being thrown around. I suppose having access to Chant helps, but that's not really a legitimate/practical solution to PLD's woes.

I still think either some native damage reduction traits (15~20% total max >_>) and/or some passive enmity boosts would go a long way as well. lolDivine Emblem.

[Obsidian]

I don't see the difference between Malachite and "It's so easy if you just fix certain aspects."

I told you what aspect needs fixing, but evidently it's not specific enough. Sword weapon skills are pathetic outside of CDC (Vorpal Blade included when compared to other crit weapon skills). Either buff Atonement to do more damage, or give them a new weapon skill altogether. Almace is nice but realistically the worth of an entire job shouldn't be dependent on having the best weapon in the game for that job.

I think you're mixing up defensive techniques and survivability. Utsusemi is the best survival tool. Third eye is random. Counterstance is good primarily because of the damage dealt and atmas. PDT works for PLD too. A lot of what you mentioned is not dealing with survival, but tanking, which is a completely different issue.

I'd say they're intrinsic to one another. Defensive techniques add to survivability. PLD has... Sentinel. Decaying PDT for thirty seconds with a five minute (4:10 with merits) cooldown. MNK gets Counterstance. 100% PDT ~60% of the time before atmas, five minute duration, five minute recast (very useful outside Abyssea too, and not just because it deals damage). Seigan/Third Eye is 100% PDT (that works on TP moves) for a random number of swings (minimum of one) with a 25 second recast. Utsu is self explanatory. They're all defensive tools, Sentinel clearly being the worst outside of potentially Third Eye without Seigan active, and they all add survivability. PDT works for everyone, difference being SAM and MNK can throw it on if they get unlucky with counters or Third Eye. PLD has no tool to fall back on, so they can either fulltime it or use DD gear and just get cure bombed all day.

What is tanking if not surviving while holding the enemy's attention? Is it doing the most damage while holding the enemy's attention? Is it just holding the enemy's attention? PLD is last in all three. Please elaborate.

Needing to get a PLD is bad because it makes the game dependent on a single class. If you don't think dependency on a single class for everything is bad, then we'll just have to disagree.

The game is dependent WHM for everything. This is a bad argument.

It's the difference between making PLD the best DD and making PLD an average DD. An impasse is what I argued, so we agree on that outcome given certain criteria.

Making PLD an average DD would accomplish nothing. There would still be no reason to bring it to anything because other DDs would kill things faster and still be able to survive. It needs to excel at something relevant, and since defense is completely irrelevant because current survival tools are adequate, you're left making it a competitive DD or a competitive healer. Ideally it wouldn't be the "best" because that would still imply an imbalance. In a perfect world each job would be a different flavor of "good" and which you use would come down to preference. PLD is "dead last" at every role in the game, and one of those roles (survivability) is irrelevant at this point in the game.

[Humblejoe]

^ Yeah idk what's up with that... did they ever fix Yagrush 90 btw? Or is it still fucked up?

February mini update. Rainbow Staff.

[Obsidian]

^ Yeah idk what's up with that... did they ever fix Yagrush 90 btw? Or is it still fucked up?


Seriously though would it kill SE to either just give PLD Provoke already, or some native job ability just like it but that's either on a shorter recast or builds CE rather than VE? I agree with the enmity cap as well, since jobs like MNK & NIN basically cap hate stupid fast from all the high damage crits being thrown around. I suppose having access to Chant helps, but that's not really a legitimate/practical solution to PLD's woes.

I still think either some native damage reduction traits (15~20% total max >_>) and/or some passive enmity boosts would go a long way as well. lolDivine Emblem.

Still no reason to make someone come on PLD when they could be on a DD job that survives just as well and kills things a lot faster.

[Yugl]

I told you what aspect needs fixing, but evidently it's not specific enough. Sword weapon skills are pathetic outside of CDC (Vorpal Blade included when compared to other crit weapon skills). Either buff Atonement to do more damage, or give them a new weapon skill altogether. Almace is nice but realistically the worth of an entire job shouldn't be dependent on having the best weapon in the game for that job.



I'd say they're intrinsic to one another. Defensive techniques add to survivability. PLD has... Sentinel. Decaying PDT for thirty seconds with a five minute (4:10 with merits) cooldown. MNK gets Counterstance. 100% PDT ~60% of the time before atmas, five minute duration, five minute recast (very useful outside Abyssea too, and not just because it deals damage). Seigan/Third Eye is 100% PDT (that works on TP moves) for a random number of swings (minimum of one) with a 25 second recast. Utsu is self explanatory. They're all defensive tools, Sentinel clearly being the worst outside of potentially Third Eye without Seigan active, and they all add survivability. PDT works for everyone, difference being SAM and MNK can throw it on if they get unlucky with counters or Third Eye. PLD has no tool to fall back on, so they can either fulltime it or use DD gear and just get cure bombed all day.

What is tanking if not surviving while holding the enemy's attention? Is it doing the most damage while holding the enemy's attention? Is it just holding the enemy's attention? PLD is last in all three. Please elaborate.


The game is dependent WHM for everything. This is a bad argument.


Making PLD an average DD would accomplish nothing. There would still be no reason to bring it to anything because other DDs would kill things faster and still be able to survive. It needs to excel at something relevant, and since defense is completely irrelevant because current survival tools are adequate, you're left making it a competitive DD or a competitive healer. Ideally it wouldn't be the "best" because that would still imply an imbalance. In a perfect world each job would be a different flavor of "good" and which you use would come down to preference. PLD is "dead last" at every role in the game, and one of those roles (survivability) is irrelevant at this point in the game.

I'll address this first because you're the one making the faulty argument: The game's dependency on WHM only damages my argument if I were to say the game is perfectly fine now. It isn't and I never said it is. So how are you concluding that it hinders my argument? You don't need Almace to get CDC. I personally will not see any Empyrean weapons just because I'm not positioned to obtain one. Yet, I will make an effort to obtain CDC for BLU and RDM. I don't see how you think entire dependency on a single class is fine, but think that a class asserting its utility through the use of a weapon (And WoE counts) is bad unless the weapon is ridiculously difficult to obtain. How do those defensive things handle AoE though? Utsusemi either takes or falls against AoE. Not sure about shield skill since I'm not a PLD, but sentinel works if anticipated or if the tank is near death after a move. Third Eye usually gets wrecked by physical AoE and does nothing for magic AoE. I'm sure you cannot counter those either and you take heavy damage. Full timing it is irrelevant when talking strictly about survivability.

Anyways, looking back at the argument, I see you've managed to put me in a position I wasn't defending in the first place. All I said was that if you make it so that only PLDs can tank the new NMs, it's problematic. This doesn't imply it's the best tank, but it does imply it's a closed option in my book. You stated you don't think it's bad for the game to depend on a single class, so that's just how it is.

Tanking is maximizing the kill speed while surviving minimally and holding the mob's attention. A move can make you survive more, but reduce your tanking capabilities. For example, an invincible that floors all your enmity and attack. That is what I mean to distinguish.

Average can be competitive, so you're just working on a semantics argument in that paragraph. You're really not making a case, you're just replying to point individually and out of the grand context. How does anything you've said fix the problem? It's easy to force the conclusion and say where it needs to be, but getting there is the real issue.

[Obsidian]

Sentinel can't be relied on for physical TP moves (only reduces physical damage) because of its recast timer. On a related yet irrelevant note, Guard procs on physical TP moves (completely negating the damage).

Anyway, I'll just snip one thing out because I think you and I have been arguing two different things, and I mostly agree with what you said;

All I said was that if you make it so that only PLDs can tank the new NMs, it's problematic.

I never specifically said PLD had to be the only job that could tank new content. However, there does need to be an incentive to use PLD over MNK or SAM. PLD should be the safe option; there should be a fair amount of risk associated with using a DD tank.

[RitzCracker]

I finished bow tonight. I did some before and after tests, not sure how useful any of it is but thought it might help figure out where the 25% boost is. All shots done @5 yalms or feet or w/e it is to avoid true shot bonus except for the ones @10 yalms. True shot is 7% with traits and +2 legs. Anwig is str/ws acc and agi/ws damage (subbed in 4str/agi when not wearing).

85 Yoichi, antlion arrow, 114 str, 115 agi:
base - 2127
gorget - 2202
gorget and belt - 2277
gorget, belt, anwig - 2322
gorget, belt, anwig, @10 yalms - 2484

90 Yoichi, antlion arrow, same stats:
base - 2771
gorget - 2872
gorget and belt - 2970
gorget, belt, anwig - 3028
gorget, belt, anwig, @ 10 yalms - 3240

Looks like a straight increase across the board. Does that mean it's a separate term?

Yes, the damage multiplier is applied at the end of the formula. This data matches up with my data, it's a 30% increase in damage, give or take. Not sure what the exact percentage is, but it's definitely around 30%.

[mcb]

if a whm is already needed for many things, the fix for pld is to make it so the group doesn't need to rely on a whm. change the hate cap for the job so that it can actually hold mobs off aggressive DD (hey maybe we can try some of that CE enmity again too!) and make it defensive enough that a whm is not needed to keep the party going. meaning: its gotta be taking hits for low enough dmg that shitty cureIV from the pld or rdm|sch are sufficient and a higher resistance to status effects that generally require a whm or /whm present for a pld to continue.

[Bling]

Yes, the damage multiplier is applied at the end of the formula. This data matches up with my data, it's a 30% increase in damage, give or take. Not sure what the exact percentage is, but it's definitely around 30%.

I think it's closer to 25, bow upgrade gave 9 base damage and popped up a weapon rank to include in there.

[Atomic Skull]

Seriously though would it kill SE to either just give PLD Provoke already, or some native job ability just like it but that's either on a shorter recast or builds CE rather than VE

It wouldn't matter because melees with RR will cap enmity in seconds and keep it there. PLD simply can't told hate, at all, and they would not be able to even if they had provoke on a 5 second timer. Increasing PLDs NV enmity cap is the only way a PLD could ever hope to keep hate.

Increase PLDs non volatile the enmity cap with a job trait.

Give PLD a job trait that has a chance to shield block WS targeted at him based on the damage of the attack. Higher damage = increased chance to block.

Give PLD a job ability that forces a shield block on the next WS directed against him on a 1m timer. Ability will last for 15 seconds or untill a WS is directed against him.

Give PLD a native Magic Defense Bonus.

[clobetasol]

Arguing about pld, has nothing to do with this topic. More relic testing please..