Relic Augments

[Yugl]

Want to put PLD tanking on the top? The practical solution is to give them a Naito-no-Haki: "Drops the HP of all warriors, samurai, ninjas, monks, and thieves to 0 in the zone." Think twice before you "forget" to invite your PLD friend.

Spoiler: show

Incoming "I tank better than a PLD dead" comments.

[Foldypaws]

Want to put PLD tanking on the top? The practical solution is to give them a Naito-no-Haki: "Drops the HP of all warriors, samurai, ninjas, monks, and thieves to 0 in the zone." Think twice before you "forget" to invite your PLD friend.

Spoiler: show

Incoming "I tank better than a PLD dead" comments.

Nah, then you just have DNC tanking

[Yugl]

Is it still called tanking when you're soloing an a timed spawn NM for 90min?

[Kirschy]

I finished bow tonight. I did some before and after tests, not sure how useful any of it is but thought it might help figure out where the 25% boost is. All shots done @5 yalms or feet or w/e it is to avoid true shot bonus except for the ones @10 yalms. True shot is 7% with traits and +2 legs. Anwig is str/ws acc and agi/ws damage (subbed in 4str/agi when not wearing).

85 Yoichi, antlion arrow, 114 str, 115 agi:
base - 2127
gorget - 2202
gorget and belt - 2277
gorget, belt, anwig - 2322
gorget, belt, anwig, @10 yalms - 2484

90 Yoichi, antlion arrow, same stats:
base - 2771
gorget - 2872
gorget and belt - 2970
gorget, belt, anwig - 3028
gorget, belt, anwig, @ 10 yalms - 3240

Looks like a straight increase across the board. Does that mean it's a separate term?

Oh yey, testing!

DMG:
Lv 85 Bow = 102 DMG, 38 fSTR2
Lv90 Bow = 111 DMG, 40 fSTR2
Antlion Arrow = 41 DMG

Mods:
fTP = 2.75
STR = 114 * 40% = 45
AGI = 115 * 40% = 46
@ = (45 + 46) * .85 = 77

Trial 1: Base -
Lv 85 - (102 + 38 + 41 + 77) * 2.75 * 3 = 2127
Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * 2.75 * 3 * 1.25 = 2771
=Proves there is a 25% difference in addition to the DMG boost=

Trial 2: Gorget -
Lv 85 - (102 + 38 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 25/256) * 3 = 2202
Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 25/256) * 3 * 1.25 = 2872
=Proves the increase in WS damage is NOT the same term as fTP=

Trial 3: Gorget + Belt -
Lv 85 - (102 + 38 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 = 2277
Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.25 = 2970
=Confirms belt math and trial 2=

Trial 4: Gorget + Belt + WS DMG+2% Helm
Lv 85 - (102 + 38 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.02 = 2322
Below I list three highly possible ways to see which is/are correct:
-Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.27 = 3017 [WS DMG Helm + Relic Weapon boost are same term]
-Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.25 * 1.02 = 3029 [Relic Weapon boost is calculated first, followed by WS DMG Helm]
-Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.02 * 1.25 = 3028 ** [WS DMG Helm is calculated first, followed by Relic Weapon Boost]
=This proves the Relic Weapon Boost is a separate term from WS DMG helm AND that it's calculated after.=

Trial 5: Gorget + Belt + WS DMG+2% Helm + True Shot +7%
Lv 85 - (102 + 38 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.02 * 1.07 = 2484
Below I list three highly possible ways to see which is/are correct:
-Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.02 * 1.25 * 1.07 = 3239 [True Shot is calculated after Relic Weapon Boost]
-Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.02 * 1.07 * 1.25 = 3240 ** [True Shot is calculated after WS DMG Helm, before Relic Weapon Boost]
-Lv 90 - (111 + 40 + 41 + 77) * (2.75 + 50/256) * 3 * 1.07 * 1.02 * 1.25 = 3040 ** [True Shot is calculated before WS DMG Helm]
=This proves that Relic Weapon Boost and WS DMG helm are separate terms from True Shot, but it's location in the equation is a little unclear.=

Huge thanks for doing those tests, it's always great to see confirmation that our math is correct and that terms are stacking up the way we believe. It'd be impossible to tell something as simple like the WS Helm and Relic Weapon Boost being different terms without the consistency of ranged damage!

EDIT: Reminder, although I didn't put it in, terms get floor'd each time a term gets multiplied!

[RitzCracker]

If there is a 25% increase, I don't see it in my data, but I see it in the yoichinoyumi test. I'm thinking maybe certain relics have a different damage multiplier.

[Taint]

Watching excal/aegis PLDs who used to think they ruled the game help cure MNK tanks from the backline is a thing of beauty and will never get old. Cure V would make PLD very useful again.

[Kirschy]

If there is a 25% increase, I don't see it in my data, but I see it in the yoichinoyumi test. I'm thinking maybe certain relics have a different damage multiplier.

Which weapon do you have? I'm seeing the same data/reports from each relic.

Also, not to be cruel, but your original observations of the Yochi data showed you a 30% increase, are you sure you're doing the math correctly to find the boost =x?

[RitzCracker]

I re-did the math. Yes, yoichi is a 25% increase. I have an apocalypse. I don't see how it could be a 25% increase when I get numbers above a 25% mark.

See case in point: DRK/THF, AGI 73, INT 75.

( D + fSTR + WSC ) * fTP * pDIF
( 140 + 23 + 50 ) * 2.75 * 3.15 = 1842

Maximum observed: 2417

2417 / 1842 = ~1.312

I don't know where I'm going wrong.

[Kirschy]

I re-did the math. Yes, yoichi is a 25% increase. I have an apocalypse. I don't see how it could be a 25% increase when I get numbers above a 25% mark.

See case in point: DRK/THF, AGI 73, INT 75.

( D + fSTR + WSC ) * fTP * pDIF
( 140 + 23 + 50 ) * 2.75 * 3.15 = 1842

Maximum observed: 2417

2417 / 1842 = ~1.312

I don't know where I'm going wrong.

DRK gets Critical Attack Bonus I trait which adds another 5% to your damage. 1842 * 1.05 * 1.25 = 2417. Easy to get caught by that one, I always forget DRK has the trait too

[RitzCracker]

Oh, derp. I forgot about that.

[Appie]

Well after a 7 hour parse in Abyssea Misereaux on bunnies and amoeban with Apoc/RR/Mounted Champion (I was solo mostly so went with regen atma). Had a friend cap azure for me before he went to sleep so he could leech cruor/exp =D This is just Spharai, no stance, no perfect counter, no other counter gear.

Defenses

Passive Defenses
Player             Evasion  Evasion %   Parry  Parry %   Counter  Counter %   Intimidate  Intimidate %
Appie                  602    23,18 %       0   0,00 %       501    27,29 %            0        0,00 %

With acc at:

Damage Summary
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
Appie                  2130858   100,00 %     1454250           0          85      580023           0      96500
Total                  2130858   100,00 %     1454250           0          85      580023           0      96500


Melee Damage
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Appie               1454250   68,25 %   8232/402   95,34 %     0/664    96,96   5038    0/1250  227,18   61,20 %


Other Physical Damage  (Counterattacks and Retaliations)
Player            CA.Dmg  CA.Hit/Miss  CA.Low/Hi  CA.Avg   Ret.Dmg  Ret.Hit/Miss  Ret.Low/Hi  Ret.Avg
Appie              96500        501/0      0/419  192,61         0           0/0         0/0     0,00


Weaponskill Damage
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Appie                      580023    27,22 %     295/0   100,00 %    449/5593  1966,18
 - Ascetic's Fury          576903    99,46 %     292/0   100,00 %    449/5593  1975,70
 - Asuran Fists              3120     0,54 %       3/0   100,00 %    971/1093  1040,00


Ability Damage
Player                  Abil. Dmg    Abil. %  Hit/Miss    A.Acc %    A.Low/Hi    A.Avg
Appie                          85     0,00 %       1/0   100,00 %       85/85    85,00
 - Chi Blast                   85   100,00 %       1/0   100,00 %       85/85    85,00

Will continue this parse probably wednesday, since it has less errors than the stance parse the other day, but if my math is right it looks like I got a 28.6~ % counterrate without acc check. Falls in line with the 4% I had in the rough parse so far. I'll see if I can push out a few more %, but goddamn, going from 26% to 27+ took me from 300 to 450 counters lol. Don't know how fast I can do the other test with gear and atma's if this is becoming the standard for this test lol.

[Atomic Skull]

so the only way to make it in any way relevant is to give it a DD buff.

The problem with that is that PLD/RDM can survive forever with no outside support against anything that can't kill them in under 5 minutes, and that's a lot of things. I've seen a PLD survive for 20 minutes against Shinryu with no outside healing for example (could have went longer but the noob DRG finally managed to proc blue) If you give PLD enough of a DD boost to make them a credible DD then PLD is broken, if you give them less of a DD boost than that they are no more desirable than a DRK or a RNG and their situation doesn't change.

[Eleven19]

If you give PLD enough of a DD boost to make them a credible DD then PLD is broken, if you give them less of a DD boost than that they are no more desirable than a DRK or a RNG and their situation doesn't change.

So that's the dilemma. Unfortunately it seems like the only way to make the job relevant again is to change its mechanics entirely. We've never really seen that kind of change to a job afaik in FFXI. Right now, though, we've also got some better communications channels opened up between the playerbase and the community team > (hopefully) Devs.. so, I'd be interested to see how they're looking at PLD now. Its got to be a, you know.. currently known issue?

[Obsidian]

The problem with that is that PLD/RDM can survive forever with no outside support against anything that can't kill them in under 5 minutes, and that's a lot of things. I've seen a PLD survive for 20 minutes against Shinryu with no outside healing for example (could have went longer but the noob DRG finally managed to proc blue) If you give PLD enough of a DD boost to make them a credible DD then PLD is broken, if you give them less of a DD boost than that they are no more desirable than a DRK or a RNG and their situation doesn't change.

Other jobs tank better than PLD and do more damage. Why can't PLD do competitive damage without being broken? That's a double standard. Stalling is one thing (which any MNK/SAM/NIN can do with a healer), tanking is entirely another. Ochain already lets them solo just about whatever they want (within reason), I don't see why giving them a place in party play seems to be equated to the end of days.

I find it difficult to take the "you'll break PLD" argument seriously when you've got MNKs with 80% counter rates (Counterstance is viable outside too) consistently cranking out 3k Ascetic's Furies and 5k Victory Smites.

[Deathknight]

Unfortunately it seems like the only way to make the job relevant again is to change its mechanics entirely. We've never really seen that kind of change to a job afaik in FFXI.

While not contributing anything amazing, I would point out that the RNG update (having to deal with distance) may be considered a change to its mechanics. Though such changes are quite rare, there still may be hope.

[Atomic Skull]

Other jobs tank better than PLD and do more damage. Why can't PLD do competitive damage without being broken? That's a double standard. Stalling is one thing (which any MNK/SAM/NIN can do with a healer), tanking is entirely another. Ochain already lets them solo just about whatever they want (within reason), I don't see why giving them a place in party play seems to be equated to the end of days.

I find it difficult to take the "you'll break PLD" argument seriously when you've got MNKs with 80% counter rates (Counterstance is viable outside too) consistently cranking out 3k Ascetic's Furies and 5k Victory Smites.

The difference is that MNK needs an outside healer and PLD doesn't. Give a PLD the damage of a MNK and suddenly you don't need healers anymore. If PLD could compare with DD's for damage why would you ever want any other DD or healers when PLD is completely self sufficient and can put out damage comparable to other DD's that require a mage line to keep them alive?

[Obsidian]

I didn't say PLD needs to be the top DD, but it needs to be competitive or there's just no reason to bring it to anything. I also sincerely doubt it can be half as effective on its own outside Abyssea where MP becomes a factor again.

I don't see why it seems to be unthinkable to give a damage buff to a job the game describes as "a warrior that learned white magic," since at this point a bard with a dagger probably outparses PLD. The only two solutions I see are giving it a DD buff or giving it a defensive buff and introducing content that utilizes that new survivability.

[Sci]

People should stop asking for balance and speculating on job changes until SE actually announces what direction the game is going in. If there's no more abyssea content released, and all new content will be without atma/cruor buffs, then the current balance flies out the window anyhow. It's been a long time since any serious content not aimed at lvl75 was released anywhere but abyssea.

[Tsuko_Asura]

wat

The only thing that would change in the absence of cruor and atma buffs would be everyone's subjobs. We'd still be throwing WAR, SAM, MNK, and DRK at everything, the likelihood of them being /NIN just increases.

[Atomic Skull]

I didn't say PLD needs to be the top DD, but it needs to be competitive or there's just no reason to bring it to anything. I also sincerely doubt it can be half as effective on its own outside Abyssea where MP becomes a factor again.

Even if it's just competitive it still puts other DD out of business because 2 PLD would be better than a DD+healer and people will abuse the shit out of that. All you would need for anything is a few PLDs a BRD, and a RDM (maybe) and they bounce hate around and cure whoever is being attacked. If one job can do good damage and heal itself enough to stay alive on the nastiest endgame mobs at the same time there is literally no reason to ever use any other job. If they did what you are asking then 20011/12 would become the era of PLD burns until the inevitable nerf came down to keep DD+healer setups relevant.

I see are giving it a DD buff or giving it a defensive buff and introducing content that utilizes that new survivability.

Survivability isn't PLD's problem, being unable to keep hate is. If PLD could hold hate against supercharged DD's then they would do just fine because they would be a "low maintenance" tank. Giving PLD a job trait that increases their non volatile enmity cap would fix this problem.