Relic Augments

[Sci]

wat

The only thing that would change in the absence of cruor and atma buffs would be everyone's subjobs. We'd still be throwing WAR, SAM, MNK, and DRK at everything, the likelihood of them being /NIN just increases.

Play styles were very different without cruor/atmas, even though there weren't really instances that PLD really shined pre-abyssea, because things were trending towards DD tanks. The problem was most content was old/easy, and the need for a "tank" type of job didn't exist. It was mostly just efficiency in terms of damage and MP management.

PLD was a safety net usually with high survivability/decent enmity generation, but low damage. But all it would take is high damage output/high defense HNMs to limit DD tanking. Put simply if the amount of enmity built by support is greater than the amount of enmity that a DD can produce, then DD tanking wouldn't work. That's the niche that a PLD falls into. Whether or not any new content will have that level of "difficulty" is anyone's guess. But that alone might "fix" PLD in the eyes of most people. I really don't know how an almace or CDC boosts a PLD's damage, but there was even a time in the distant past when people lauded just excalibur's additional effect damage. Anyhow, shit's situational, and we don't know what the situations will be in the near future. And trying to base things off of abyssea or lvl75 content difficulty might end up being very wrong.

[FailureMidgard]

Play styles were very different without cruor/atmas, even though there weren't really instances that PLD really shined pre-abyssea, because things were trending towards DD tanks. The problem was most content was old/easy, and the need for a "tank" type of job didn't exist. It was mostly just efficiency in terms of damage and MP management.

PLD was a safety net usually with high survivability/decent enmity generation, but low damage. But all it would take is high damage output/high defense HNMs to limit DD tanking. Put simply if the amount of enmity built by support is greater than the amount of enmity that a DD can produce, then DD tanking wouldn't work. That's the niche that a PLD falls into. Whether or not any new content will have that level of "difficulty" is anyone's guess. But that alone might "fix" PLD in the eyes of most people. I really don't know how an almace or CDC boosts a PLD's damage, but there was even a time in the distant past when people lauded just excalibur's additional effect damage. Anyhow, shit's situational, and we don't know what the situations will be in the near future. And trying to base things off of abyssea or lvl75 content difficulty might end up being very wrong.

Except paladin generates less enmity than a DD can produce....the only "benefits" paladin brought was the ability to heal itself and alleviate healer mp in that fashion, as well as better cooldowns and, the ability to generate enmity from a distance or while not engaged/not feeding TP (though some DD could do that anyway).

[lolwut]

But all it would take is high damage output/high defense HNMs to limit DD tanking. Put simply if the amount of enmity built by support is greater than the amount of enmity that a DD can produce, then DD tanking wouldn't work. That's the niche that a PLD falls into. Whether or not any new content will have that level of "difficulty" is anyone's guess. But that alone might "fix" PLD in the eyes of most people. I really don't know how an almace or CDC boosts a PLD's damage, but there was even a time in the distant past when people lauded just excalibur's additional effect damage.

If the amount of enmity built by support is greater than the amount that good dds can produce, a Pld is going to be even less useful since they will have even greater difficulty recapping hate. CDC isn't going to do it better than real dd ws, and Excal added effect doesn't generate enmity.

Edit: Super beaten, need to refresh moar.

[onisama]

so how did we go from talking about relics to pld vs XXX?

Please stay on topic

[Sehrahin]

Not a find, just a note. Metatron Torment aftermath with level 90 is still same amount of DT-, still 796 damage from 1000 needles. Been too lazy to test but got around to it now!

[Atomic Skull]

Not a find, just a note. Metatron Torment aftermath with level 90 is still same amount of DT-, still 796 damage from 1000 needles. Been too lazy to test but got around to it now!

SE says they're going to improve Aegis's magic defense to balance it with Ochain.

Oh SE, you keep trollin.

[Odin'sLaw]

SE says they're going to improve Aegis's magic defense to balance it with Ochain.

Oh SE, you keep trollin.

only way to make aegis worth it now is to make it 100% block with hidden effect perma Reprisal

[Lyramion]

Well "balance" could mean anything. The smartest thing could be to make the new increases be MDB instead of MDT. So like -25% MDT and then 50 MDB on top with finished trials. God knows they prolly won´t do that.

Of course they could go all "new age" also and add Absorbing Magic damage or something. It´s clear that they want ochain to be Physical and Aegis magical King.

[Appie]

Makes me wonder if they had something similar planned for melee relics. I mean I can see the Spharai being defensive and Vereth offensive. RNG relic low hate/hate free and emp not, but for other relics?

[Arthars]

i already figured out the SE philosophy

if you pay for content, aka 9.99 x 3, you get the better weapon

if you stick to old expansions, eg wotg, you get jack assed +2 weapon to use the WES onry

relic belongs to old expansion, so we can guess the rest........inc new sets of weapons and armor to blow empy away next patch, at a price of 9.99 of course!

[Ayn]

i already figured out the SE philosophy

if you pay for content, aka 9.99 x 3, you get the better weapon

I dunno, they're 1/2 on this, considering the initial add ons.

[Kirschy]

I don't realli see it as a bad thing. There was nothing in the game that aegis was needed for. That doubles for ochain. Giving up a bit of block rate for a major increase in magic defense seems like an overall better deal. Right now its a bit silly since mdt is so easy to cap, but if se is going to change it so aegis has better magic reduction qualities in the form of mdb, absorb/annul, or something else, it seems like it'll come out as the better overall weapon. The faults with old as a job aside, ochain has like 15 to 20 % block rate over aegis... if they give aegis an equally decent reduction for magic damage that can't be achieved elsewhere I'd say they did a good job balancing the two shields

[Appie]

Continued parsing in abyssea-misereaux for about 110mins making the total parse close to 9 hours and 426 mobs fought by me, went as low as 27.1% and as high as 27.44% today. Can somebody give me an idea of what amount of counters I should be aiming for to be certain it won't get any higher? Getting swung at over 2k times seems enough to me, but I'd rather let a mathmatician call it =)

Damage Taken

Damage Taken Summary
Player             Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
Appie                 289377   100,00 %      176275           0       55232           0       44079      13791
Total                 289377   100,00 %      176275           0       55232           0       44079      13791


Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Appie                 176275   60,92 %  1603/1382      0/199   109,28     12   103/255  200,42    0,75 %
Atuo                       0    0,00 %        0/1        0/0     0,00      0       0/0    0,00    0,00 %
Sophitia                   0    0,00 %        0/3        0/0     0,00      0       0/0    0,00    0,00 %


Other Magical Damage Taken  (Additional Effects and Spikes)
Player             M.AE Dmg  # M.AE  M.AE Avg   R.AE Dmg  # R.AE  R.AE Avg   Spk.Dmg  # Spike  Spk.Avg
Appie                  1748      84     20,81          0       0      0,00     11378       80   142,23


Ability Damage Taken
Player                  Abil. Dmg    Abil. %  Hit/Miss    A.Acc %    A.Low/Hi    A.Avg
Appie                       55232    19,09 %     183/3    98,39 %      81/472   301,81
 - Dust Cloud                 973     1,76 %      10/0   100,00 %      81/110    97,30
 - Foot Kick                 3583     6,49 %      15/1    93,75 %     175/408   238,87
 - Nucleic Implosion          941     1,70 %       2/0   100,00 %     469/472   470,50
 - Osmosis                  21582    39,08 %      83/0   100,00 %     108/312   260,02
 - Vacuole Discharge        26564    48,10 %      66/0   100,00 %     217/455   402,48
 - Whirl Claws               1589     2,88 %       7/2    77,78 %     122/318   227,00


Spell Damage Taken
Player                  Spell Dmg   Spell %  #Spells  #Fail  S.Low/Hi     S.Avg  #MBurst  MB.Low/Hi   MB.Avg
Appie                       44079   15,23 %      100      0    64/896    440,79        0        0/0     0,00
 - Bio III                   2584    5,86 %       22      0    64/128    117,45        0        0/0     0,00
 - Drain                     3227    7,32 %       13      0   185/342    248,23        0        0/0     0,00
 - Stone V                  20697   46,95 %       27      0   404/896    766,56        0        0/0     0,00
 - Stonega III              17571   39,86 %       38      0   263/578    462,39        0        0/0     0,00


Ability Usage

Ability                 Used/Prepared
Dust Cloud                      10/11
Foot Kick                       16/17
Nucleic Implosion                 2/3
Osmosis                         85/93
Vacuole Discharge               66/67
Whirl Claws                      9/13
Total                         188/204


Defenses

Passive Defenses
Player             Evasion  Evasion %   Parry  Parry %   Counter  Counter %   Intimidate  Intimidate %
Appie                  780    24,60 %       0   0,00 %       605    27,40 %            0        0,00 %
Atuo                     0     0,00 %       0   0,00 %         0     0,00 %            1        0,00 %
Sophitia                 0     0,00 %       0   0,00 %         0     0,00 %            3        0,00 %

Ignore the bst's, weren't in pt, their intimidates got in the parser though.

Damage Summary
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
Appie                  2596027   100,00 %     1782061           0          85      695955           0     117926
Total                  2596027   100,00 %     1782061           0          85      695955           0     117926


Melee Damage
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Appie               1782061   68,65 %   9920/500   95,20 %     0/664    99,85   6072    0/1250  230,21   61,21 %


Other Physical Damage  (Counterattacks and Retaliations)
Player            CA.Dmg  CA.Hit/Miss  CA.Low/Hi  CA.Avg   Ret.Dmg  Ret.Hit/Miss  Ret.Low/Hi  Ret.Avg
Appie             117926        605/0      0/419  194,92         0           0/0         0/0     0,00


Weaponskill Damage
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Appie                      695955    26,81 %     354/0   100,00 %    449/5593  1965,97
 - Ascetic's Fury          692835    99,55 %     351/0   100,00 %    449/5593  1973,89
 - Asuran Fists              3120     0,45 %       3/0   100,00 %    971/1093  1040,00


Ability Damage
Player                  Abil. Dmg    Abil. %  Hit/Miss    A.Acc %    A.Low/Hi    A.Avg
Appie                          85     0,00 %       1/0   100,00 %       85/85    85,00
 - Chi Blast                   85   100,00 %       1/0   100,00 %       85/85    85,00

If the mathmaticians cool with it I'm just gonna call it at 14% for lv90 Spharai.

[Kirschy]

Big thanks for doing the testing. I know how tedious it can get. Seems like a 1% gain per augment... nothing amazing but still very nice addition to the damage,attack,and wa boost on the weapon

[Byrthnoth]

It's a two-state system again, so I think you can use the binomial distribution again:
1.96*100*SQRT(.274*.726/(1603+605)) = +/- 1.86% for the 95% confidence interval.

So you can be 95% sure that the actual value falls between 25.5% and 29.3%. 15% from Spharai would still be reasonable, I think, but I don't think one percentage point is going to matter that much.

[Arthars]

I dunno, they're 1/2 on this, considering the initial add ons.

1. 1st trio is to test the amount of suckers on the market.
2. they found out people didnt fall for the trick, not many people bought all 3 or even 1....
3. they decide to blow the project up, making us HAVE TO BUY to be competitive....
4. abyssea trio series worked wonders $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
5. "what shall we do next" period....huge expansion/ or moar mini packs...
6. ???
7a. ANOTHER FAIL WOTG OR SHANTOTOTOTOTOOTOTOTOT
7b. Abyssea series +3 with moar magian trials to +3 our armor, and get 100 <insert NM name> hearts for lvl 95 empyrean weapon
7c. idk

[Appie]

Big thanks for doing the testing. I know how tedious it can get. Seems like a 1% gain per augment... nothing amazing but still very nice addition to the damage,attack,and wa boost on the weapon

Afaik the lv75 version had 5%, jp wiki had this for ages, NA wiki didn't until another MNK here tested it to be 5%. The Lv80 version looked like 10%, then it just got messy.

It's a two-state system again, so I think you can use the binomial distribution again:
1.96*100*SQRT(.274*.726/(1603+605)) = +/- 1.86% for the 95% confidence interval.

So you can be 95% sure that the actual value falls between 25.5% and 29.3%. 15% from Spharai would still be reasonable, I think, but I don't think one percentage point is going to matter that much.

Ok, thanks.

[scaevola]

The difference is that MNK needs an outside healer and PLD doesn't. Give a PLD the damage of a MNK and suddenly you don't need healers anymore. If PLD could compare with DD's for damage why would you ever want any other DD or healers when PLD is completely self sufficient and can put out damage comparable to other DD's that require a mage line to keep them alive?

There must be SOME reason, because we haven't all rerolled DNC.

[Kirschy]

Afaik the lv75 version had 5%, jp wiki had this for ages, NA wiki didn't until another MNK here tested it to be 5%. The Lv80 version looked like 10%, then it just got messy.

This seems weird. No other relic got such a big boost for the first upgrade. Maybe mnks just got another 5% counters from somewhere? I guess if I can find the time ill try to run a base test using my mnk. I'm curious if the boost from relic is 9% or 14%.

[Appie]

The dude that tested the 10% for lv80 in this topic also tested it with lv75 Spharai before upgrading, which confirmed the 5% the JP's reported and showed no new tier for counter trait. Maybe SE felt sorry for Spharai, being nothing better defensively than cross-counters, so they tossed in 10% for lv80.

edit: page 71-72 of this topic.