Relic Augments

[Therin]

Could you point me to that? Because I'm pretty sure the argument that you were discussing (I read it too) assumed much higher accuracy than is reasonable while tanking, didn't account for casting other spells while meleeing, and didn't account for all the 0 damage hits you're going to do with Joyeuse that you won't with a sword with higher base damage.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I remember that math and it was complete bullshit.

[Tsuko_Asura]

What do accuracy and interruptions have to do with a comparison between the two swords, and what does a difference of fourteen base damage have to do with hitting for zero?

You're on your own in regard to finding that, I'm fairly certain its buried deep within the relic thread.

[Therin]

What do accuracy and interruptions have to do with a comparison between the two swords, and what does a difference of fourteen base damage have to do with hitting for zero?

Because you don't have to do any of that with Excalibur? Also, you can use Excalibur in a dual-tank situation where you match hate with your partner, whereas if you're spamming Atonement you'd better hope your co-tank is EXACTLY as good as you are otherwise you're going to be eating up all the hate and not doing nearly as much damage as you should be due to that fact.

Also if I remember correctly that math was assuming 750 per Atonement which is also completely unreasonable.

Also, +14 base damage and +20 Attack.

Most of a Joyeuse's advantage is negated by the fact that you're not getting TP for probably 10-20% of your hits against a mob which is fairly difficult.

Anyway, this isn't related to the topic here. I just remember that the thread comparing the two was absolutely retarded because it didn't take into account half of the variables that exist in a real situation.

[Tsuko_Asura]

]Also, I don't see why being able to DD without taking hate is irrelevant. You're going to lose a massive portion of your potential damage due to doing tanky things, like casting shadows or Cure spells, and so on. If you're arguing that you shouldn't include that because it's not within the "standard" purpose of playing PLD I'd say that's ridiculous - lots of relics have extra uses outside of their job's main focus and none of that decreases from their utility.

Was this an edit? I didn't see it until now.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Paladin as a tank is already extremely limited because other jobs can do more damage than them without breaking a sweat(without needing a relic weapon to boot). Conversely Thorny and I looked into the possibility of using an Excaladin solely for damage purposes, and it turned out that not only could it not keep up with more commonplace DD jobs in terms of pure output, but not even the hate-free aspect could allow for it to keep up.

[Meat]

Was this an edit? I didn't see it until now.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Paladin as a tank is already extremely limited because other jobs can do more damage than them without breaking a sweat(without needing a relic weapon to boot). Conversely Thorny and I looked into the possibility of using an Excaladin solely for damage purposes, and it turned out that not only could it not keep up with more commonplace DD jobs in terms of pure output, but not even the hate-free aspect could allow for it to keep up.

so much for going afk at jol

[Atomic Skull]

Implying that Square Enix knows anything at all about how PLD is actually played in the game or the relative strength and utility of Joyeuse, Excalibur, etc.

SE does not play FFXI.

[Khelek]

I see your joyeuses and excaliburs and raise you Justice Sword/Kraken Club atonements! (works on king arthro, should work on anything amirite?)

[Ahkow]

cue the 9k dmg from excali on SW

[thunderlips]

so much for going afk at jol

Last time I went afk pld to JoL I parsed between 31% and 40% of the damage on each of the 4 we popped and won the parse 3/4 times. Granted we only had 4 or 5 DD total including me but I was happy with the results.

[Savanah]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't enspells block the additional effect proc on excalibur? If so, that would save you a whole lot of headaches trying to killshot with Knights of Round and having an additional wreck it for you...

[Neosutra]

The excal/joytoy comparison was done in optimal meleeing situations where the pld can tank and melee effectively, (meaning decent hit rate for excal's additional effect and joytoy tp). In THOSE cases, Excal is marginally better for DOT and worse for emnity.

However people are right, shit is situational, and excal pulls ahead more and more as situations become less optimal for TP gain and harder mobs.

So basically, you're both right lol.

Just hope they instance dynamis so all the shitty plds can have their very own excal!

[shepardG]

So how is gungnir after its trials are completed? I am working on my 4th stage, and currency is ridiculous on slyph. I'm understanding that the OAT magian polearm is better, correct? How is the "weakens defense " add effect? @107 dmg is this going to be a weapon for dragoon lovers only, or will it have a use to a endgame LS?

[Therin]

What do you think? Gungnir was one of the most amazing weapons around prior to the update so why wouldn't it be the same (or even better) now?

The OAT Polearm is good in some cases, sure, but a Gungnir is still going to be better (especially on anything difficult, where OAT loses most of its appeal).

[Tsuko_Asura]

What do you think? Gungnir was one of the most amazing weapons around prior to the update so why wouldn't it be the same (or even better) now?

The OAT Polearm is good in some cases, sure, but a Gungnir is still going to be better (especially on anything difficult, where OAT loses most of its appeal).

If you avoided multi-hit weapons on <insert mob here> beforehand, sure, you'd still want to stick with a Gungnir, but as far as pure damage is concerned, OAT is better.

[Therin]

If you avoided multi-hit weapons on <insert mob here> beforehand, sure, you'd still want to stick with a Gungnir, but as far as pure damage is concerned, OAT is better.

I only see that being the case if you're fighting weak mobs. You're going to be spamming Drakesbane so with the lower damage on OAT you'll probably only average like 200-400 damage on something with higher defense (Dynamis-Xarc mobs, for example) and 600-800 on your average T3 Einherjar mob. Gungnir should do much better.

[shepardG]

@ Therin and Tsuko

Thanks ^^ after debating and debating and finally narrowing it down between a gungnir and a mandau, I decided that Gungnir could "theoritically" increase everyone elses dmg as well as help when I solo things on drg/whm.

I also believe that one of the final upgrades to these relics/mythics will be the Standard Multi-hit, twice, 2-3 times, 2-4 times, etc., therby solidifying their place as the top of the food chain. This is all just guess's of course, and maybe some hope/wishing

Thanks again^^

[Tsuko_Asura]

Save your currency until you know that for certain, IMO.

[dys0r]

http://i40.tinypic.com/6se81k.png

I never want to see another undead or crab ever again. I only paced myself for about 100-150 a day; couldn't find the will to do more WS/killshots a day without losing my sanity. Interesting stats: I gained around 21k conquest points, 230 kindred seals, 180 beastmen seals, and countless times raging when I would whiff at a low % or the crab pulling up scissor guard, leaving it at like 1%. Haha, fun times.

[Shinryuu]

didn't account for all the 0 damage hits you're going to do with Joyeuse that you won't with a sword with higher base damage.

I remember that math and it was complete bullshit.

Sublime, really. Have you ever done any FFXI math whatsoever? I'm fairly sure it's pretty bad to criticize math (of any kind) in the same post that shows you know absolutely nothing. You even could have saved yourself because ironically Excalibur will do less 0's than Joyeuse, just not for y'know, the reason you mentioned.

shephardG: if I were you I'd save the gil for shiny stuff and go for the OAT polearm. It doesn't matter if it's hard stuff or easy stuff (contrary to what Therin says), OAT polearm will always be somewhere around Gungnir (whether it loses or wins I haven't calculated but OAT polearm vs relic polearm is closer than say OAT GAX vs relic GAX because for DRG, the OAT is more of an increase since there's much less base double attack). In fact, OAT polearm should have a higher WS/TP ratio and since Drakes is a crit WS that means OAT pulls closer to Gungnir on harder stuff.

And yes, enspells should block Exca's added effect but I'm not sure. Very worth testing, I'd imagine o_o; either way, relating this to PLD Excalibur DD: any situation where you have Haste Samba real DDs are worth even more compared to PLD since you can't proc both Samba and added effect (regardless of which effect procs, should be Samba though).

[Fottiti]

I only see that being the case if you're fighting weak mobs. You're going to be spamming Drakesbane so with the lower damage on OAT you'll probably only average like 200-400 damage on something with higher defense (Dynamis-Xarc mobs, for example) and 600-800 on your average T3 Einherjar mob. Gungnir should do much better.

I was under the impression it would work exactly opposite to what you have just said.

Due to WS mods base damage has less of an impact when comparing average WS numbers between 2 weapons. Gungnir doesn't have any attack boost on it, the only reason why it might benefit you more when fighting high defense target would be the AE.

I'm sure someone will do a full comparison but until then lets leave out the retarded opinions and sweeping statements based on nothing.