Relic Augments

[Byrthnoth]

Hmm... yeaaaaaaaaah.

1) Not factoring V.Fork's Double Attack or Gugnir's Defense Down/2.5x procs, Gungnir would do about 5% more damage than Valkyrie's Fork.
2) The difference on WS will be even less, ~3% more for Gungnir due to WS mods (-double attack.)
3) This sounds stupid and obvious, but even with 2 Accuracy boosts Dragoon still has jack for gear choices and the 20 Acc on Gungnir is really what helps the most.
4) Pizza has somewhat reduced this benefit, I suppose.

Also, Therin:
You really need to learn how the damage formulas work. No dragoon weapon is going to have an advantage on high defense or high-level monsters, because the dragoon TP/WS split isn't going to change as you increase monster defense or level. That's only SAM (when they switch from Polearm to GKT), DRK (when they switch from Guillo to Ground Strike/Cross Reaper/whatever), and maybe WAR (Steel Cyclone).
Without a pDIF boosting WS (lolGimpulseDrive), there's no change in the TP/WS split. You can make an argument that Drakesbane potentially has a 10% crit bonus, which would change the WS/TP split, but I don't think that has been proven.

[Shinryuu]

Uh, of course a DRG's WS/TP split is going to change. Drakes crits, and Wheeling Thrust really isn't bad (I use it on JoL). However, when comparing weapons, the OAT should always have a higher WS/TP ratio than Gungnir, which counters everything Therin says either way.

[Byrthnoth]

Uh, of course a DRG's WS/TP split is going to change. Drakes crits, and Wheeling Thrust really isn't bad (I use it on JoL). However, when comparing weapons, the OAT should always have a higher WS/TP ratio than Gungnir, which counters everything Therin says either way.

Normal hits crit too (so if it doesn't get a crit rate bonus it wouldn't change the WS/TP split), and JoL might be the only place where Wheeling Thrust should be used (because you want a dragoon or two there for Angon). Also, the OAT polearm will benefit more from WS mods, but it will also over TP more often. The WS portion of its TP/WS split may still be favored, but it's one of the best DoT Polearms out there so it's probably not entirely unambiguous.

[Zirk]

Before deciding for sure if you're going to do OAT polearm or Gungnir, keep in mind Gungnir likely still has 3 more trials left to go before its final version, and its probably going to kick some serious ass (I'm confident relics will get OAT, under no circumstances should any non-relic weapon be able to be compared to a relic weapon, and OAT on relics would do that).

[Tsuko_Asura]

Turning in the currency for any relic weapon right now seems iffy. I feel like its more than worth the wait to just see how things pan out before dropping that much cash on something that even has a chance of becoming(/staying, in the case of PLM) obsolete.

And not that I don't agree with you in theory, don't forget that Square doesn't seem to actually comprehend what it takes to make something competitive with what's in power at any given time. Proof? Mythic weapons.

[BerenTebogo]

Turning in the currency for any relic weapon right now seems iffy. I feel like its more than worth the wait to just see how things pan out before dropping that much cash on something that even has a chance of becoming(/staying, in the case of PLM) obsolete.

And not that I don't agree with you in theory, don't forget that Square doesn't seem to actually comprehend what it takes to make something competitive with what's in power at any given time. Proof? Mythic weapons.

I still consider a Ryunohige (if someone with a brain would upgrade one, which isn't happening) a pretty good contender overall.

Provided they maximize the shit out of their TP management during 300 TP aftermath anyways (wyvern gets DA% too)

[Tsuko_Asura]

Fair enough. Potentially the single exception, but I don't think anyone is actually capable of playing perfectly enough for Ryu to surpass magian OAT.

[BerenTebogo]

Fair enough. Potentially the single exception, but I don't think anyone is actually capable of playing perfectly enough for Ryu to surpass magian OAT.

It's like a ~20 base damage difference and WSing at 300TP and all the WS in between can all be Drakesbane (which is a unique benefit to Ryunohige as being one of the few mythic WS worth using) giving you the ~same OAT% and perma-crit on all jumps + Wyvern OAT.

I think you could be pretty lazy (i.e. only ~4-5 WS during 300TP aftermath before storing to 300TP) and still beat OAT Magian for now, especially if you do the magian trial for higher base damage on Ryu. Could be wrong, 3am so not gonna bother looking at it too closely tonight.

Edit: On topic: I'm still working on Plantoid kills because Trial 2 is the most ridiculous, tedious waste of time bullshit ever invented. Ever. If Relics don't get OAT I will break things.

[didgist]

I still consider a Ryunohige (if someone with a brain would upgrade one, which isn't happening) a pretty good contender overall.

Provided they maximize the shit out of their TP management during 300 TP aftermath anyways (wyvern gets DA% too)

Atsuatsu is making a Ryunohige right here on Fenrir.

[Appie]

Edit: On topic: I'm still working on Plantoid kills because Trial 2 is the most ridiculous, tedious waste of time bullshit ever invented. Ever. If Relics don't get OAT I will break things.

Think I whacked about 1700 funguars by the time I was done >.>
Averaged 55 WS per hour, it felt so fucking slow.

[Shinryuu]

Turning in the currency for any relic weapon right now seems iffy. I feel like its more than worth the wait to just see how things pan out before dropping that much cash on something that even has a chance of becoming(/staying, in the case of PLM) obsolete.

Completely agree. In Apocalypse's case it seems fairly safe still, maybe Excalibur (which sucks so meh), but really if the level cap thing also yields much better haste gear Apocalypse might become 'useless' (better by such a small margin if at all that it is not worth upgrading, 'sup Gungnir).

[BerenTebogo]

Think I whacked about 1700 funguars by the time I was done >.>
Averaged 55 WS per hour, it felt so fucking slow.

I'm doing mandys mainly since Funguar like to unresisted Dark Spore me for like 600 dmg. I took like 1.5-2 weeks off in between finishing T1 and starting T2. Started T2 like...3 days ago now.

I really can't imagine how hellish T3 will be.

[Valisk]

I really can't imagine how hellish T3 will be.

Even though the remaining Relic Upgrade Trials aren't in the DATs yet, aren't all the requirements for Magian Trials available, just unassigned?

[BerenTebogo]

idk, go look for me!

[Appie]

I'm doing mandys mainly since Funguar like to unresisted Dark Spore me for like 600 dmg. I took like 1.5-2 weeks off in between finishing T1 and starting T2. Started T2 like...3 days ago now.

I really can't imagine how hellish T3 will be.

Odd, I don't remember a Dark Spore hitting me for more than 300dmg and it usually did double digits. Spore was usually my major annoyance, para proc'ing like mad from a goddamn EP (the most retarded was 4 para's in a row).

[Atomic Skull]

Hmm... yeaaaaaaaaah.

1) Not factoring V.Fork's Double Attack or Gugnir's Defense Down/2.5x procs, Gungnir would do about 5% more damage than Valkyrie's Fork.
2) The difference on WS will be even less, ~3% more for Gungnir due to WS mods (-double attack.)
3) This sounds stupid and obvious, but even with 2 Accuracy boosts Dragoon still has jack for gear choices and the 20 Acc on Gungnir is really what helps the most.
4) Pizza has somewhat reduced this benefit, I suppose.

Also, Therin:
You really need to learn how the damage formulas work. No dragoon weapon is going to have an advantage on high defense or high-level monsters, because the dragoon TP/WS split isn't going to change as you increase monster defense or level. That's only SAM (when they switch from Polearm to GKT), DRK (when they switch from Guillo to Ground Strike/Cross Reaper/whatever), and maybe WAR (Steel Cyclone).
Without a pDIF boosting WS (lolGimpulseDrive), there's no change in the TP/WS split. You can make an argument that Drakesbane potentially has a 10% crit bonus, which would change the WS/TP split, but I don't think that has been proven.

I thought Wheeling Thrust partially ignored defense?

[Yugl]

I thought Wheeling Thrust partially ignored defense?

It does, but it's presumably less than a pDIF boost will provide.

Edit: It ignores SOME defense.

[Therin]

Completely agree. In Apocalypse's case it seems fairly safe still, maybe Excalibur (which sucks so meh), but really if the level cap thing also yields much better haste gear Apocalypse might become 'useless' (better by such a small margin if at all that it is not worth upgrading, 'sup Gungnir).

Apocalypse is good because it cures you so you can play much more aggressively than with a standard weapon, the Haste is just a nice bonus, but not the main reason for upgrading.

[Kirschy]

Apocalypse is good because it cures you so you can play much more aggressively than with a standard weapon, the Haste is just a nice bonus, but not the main reason for upgrading.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can play as aggressively as I do on DRK on my other melee like SAM/WAR and or WAR/SAM. Mages/Buffs have gotten to the point where the cure from Catastrophe doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't do /w good mages.

I would be very happy to see more haste options for DRK so that more playstyle options become available. Catastrophe is a weak WS when compared to Guillotine, Raging Rush, Penta Thrust or Kaiten.

[Therin]

I can't speak for everyone, but I can play as aggressively as I do on DRK on my other melee like SAM/WAR and or WAR/SAM. Mages/Buffs have gotten to the point where the cure from Catastrophe doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't do /w good mages.

That may be true with Hasso but riding Souleater without an Apocalypse is too much of a drain on MP in most cases. With Apocalypse, you can use it liberally (increasing your melee damage by a huge amount) and still not be an MP sink and that, in my opinion, is one of its biggest advantages.

Also, again I'm hearing "Catastrophe is a weak WS" but my average Catastrophe is almost just as high as my average Guillotine . . perhaps it's weaker than Gekko or King's Justice, but I don't see a difference between it and Guillotine (100 damage tops), especially on tough monsters where multi-hit WSes fail anyway.