Relic Augments

[Kirschy]

That may be true with Hasso but riding Souleater without an Apocalypse is too much of a drain on MP in most cases. With Apocalypse, you can use it liberally (increasing your melee damage by a huge amount) and still not be an MP sink and that, in my opinion, is one of its biggest advantages.

Also, again I'm hearing "Catastrophe is a weak WS" but my average Catastrophe is almost just as high as my average Guillotine . . perhaps it's weaker than Gekko or King's Justice, but I don't see a difference between it and Guillotine (100 damage tops), especially on tough monsters where multi-hit WSes fail anyway.

In merits + Ein when I have buffs there's a large difference between Guillotine and Cata for me. Guillotine is like ~1,100 average, Cata is like ~300 lower.

Like I said I can't speak for all, but I know of 2 non-relic DRKs in my ls who use souleater fairly liberally. (I can use it often using Mythic too.) While I definetly agree that Catastrophe helps ease the MP burden, I also find that as you're reaching max potential, it's usefulness fades. (I think Cata Shines a lot in situations like Salvage, but less in Ein/Merit type situations.)

Being able to keep capped eq haste AND use Guillotine will only help my damage output, even if I can't use it in every scenario. Thats why I'm definitely rooting for more haste eq. I'd like to be able to use Catastrophe/AM gear and full Haste/Guillotine interchangeably depending on scenario~

[BerenTebogo]

Count 1 more vote for more haste gear so bravura can get 26% Haste and we can stop having discussions about which DD is the best.

[Tsuko_Asura]

WAR is already better than Apoc DRK for pure damage

[BerenTebogo]

WAR is already better than Apoc DRK for pure damage

I meant all DD jobs.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Stop yelling at me

[BerenTebogo]

I love lamp.

[Shinryuu]

WAR should've gotten that one helm and Tiercel's.

[Malacite]

WAR is already better than Apoc DRK for pure damage

Forgive my ignorance here but...

How? Serious question, not trying to flame/troll. Also in part because lord knows I tried everything when I first took WAR to 75 and it seemed like every other WAR was just absolutely kicking my ass in damage - _ -

[Meat]

I meant all DD jobs.

who's beating you on relic war? yochi sams?

[Ayn]

How? Serious question, not trying to flame/troll. Also in part because lord knows I tried everything when I first took WAR to 75 and it seemed like every other WAR was just absolutely kicking my ass in damage - _

Sath and about 28 other people can probably answer it better than me, but:

A well geared/merited Bravura WAR is going to have a higher Double Attack rate, Berserk (not sure how Bravura WARs merit -- 5/5 DA / 5/5 Zerk?), which doesn't have Last Resort's craptastic duration, Warcry, and Retaliation. Furthermore, I *think* an optimally geared relic WAR is going to be sitting closer to the haste cap (24%, if I'm estimating correctly) than an ideally geared Apoc DRK (22%).

I'm not sure how the WSes compare, but doesn't Metatron usually do more than Catastrophe since it doesn't have stupid mods on it? Either way, while an Apoc DRK dependent on Catastrophe to hit haste cap, a relic WAR (again, correct me if I'm wrong) has more freedom to alternate WSes.

Don't get me wrong. I like my relic, but I've no illusions about outdoing Warriors in terms of pure damage.

[Khelek]

I've heard different statements on Catastrophe's haste effect. FFXICalculator has it listed separately from gear, magic and ability haste though. I'd assume this to be the correct way of calculating it?

As far as the WS dmg goes, a WAR would do better since they have no need to use Metatron Torment at all.

[BerenTebogo]

Amongst what everyone else has said, as colibri as a sample size my RR average is about 350-500 (500 being the high, shitty Cata sets, etc) higher per WS than Apoc DRK with easily the same number of WS (26% haste vs 23/24% haste and WAR DA+%)

So WS damage, DPS, cata haste is mitigated unless DNC is involved (with 2x march + haste + 5/5 haste samba + hasso a 23% haste bravura is gonna see a good apoc pull a lot closer)

Don't forget retaliation, the most cheating JA in the game for merits / einherjar.

[Khelek]

Pretty sure Cata AM counts towards gear haste.

That's not much proof in my book.

[Kirschy]

That's not much proof in my book.

Spell recast caps at 25% using Turban/V Belt/Dusk+1 Hands/Homam Legs/Homam Feet/Blitz ring + Catastrophe. (22% + Cata)

My delay tests coincide /w Catastrophe acting as gear haste (and capping at 256/1024 haste). Unless something's changed in the 1-2 yrs, it still works this way~

[Tsuko_Asura]

Sath and about 28 other people can probably answer it better than me, but:

A well geared/merited Bravura WAR is going to have a higher Double Attack rate, Berserk (not sure how Bravura WARs merit -- 5/5 DA / 5/5 Zerk?), which doesn't have Last Resort's craptastic duration, Warcry, and Retaliation. Furthermore, I *think* an optimally geared relic WAR is going to be sitting closer to the haste cap (24%, if I'm estimating correctly) than an ideally geared Apoc DRK (22%).

I'm not sure how the WSes compare, but doesn't Metatron usually do more than Catastrophe since it doesn't have stupid mods on it? Either way, while an Apoc DRK dependent on Catastrophe to hit haste cap, a relic WAR (again, correct me if I'm wrong) has more freedom to alternate WSes.

Don't get me wrong. I like my relic, but I've no illusions about outdoing Warriors in terms of pure damage.

Metatron is irrelevant, I didn't mean a Bravura WAR was superior to an Apoc DRK for pure damage, I just said WAR.

Hint: Rune Chopper

[Ayn]

I was responding to Malacite's statement and not yours (and either way, we ended up agreeing), but point certainly taken and agreed upon in either case.

[Kirschy]

Metatron is irrelevant, I didn't mean a Bravura WAR was superior to an Apoc DRK for pure damage, I just said WAR.

Hint: Rune Chopper

I don't know which DRKs you've seen. But I can't think of how a Rune Chopper War can mathematicalli beat a well played Apoc, let alone in practice. DRK vs WAR doesn't realli belong in this thread, but I feel you're gravely mistaken.

[Shinryuu]

Apoc DRK is the game's best DD if you can leave Souleater up for the duration, period. It's close enough to Bravura/RC WAR without it due to capped haste anyway without SE. Hint: DNC.

[Meat]

not even souleater is enough to close the gap, relic gaxe wars are trucks.

[Therin]

not even souleater is enough to close the gap, relic gaxe wars are trucks.

I find this hard to believe. But even if you're right, that doesn't make WAR better in every situation.

Yes, absolutely a WAR is tough to beat in most situations (especially a Bravura-wielding WAR) but I'm still not entirely sure that against an Apocalypse DRK it'll be worth the extra loss in safety. Remember that you pretty much have to ride Hasso fulltime on both jobs to really fully flesh out your potential and a WAR is going to have null defense for a large majority of the time. Pre-Apoc when I played WAR I never felt safe on it, one badly timed Sharp Sting or Formation Attack in Dynamis-Tav and it's game over, that's definitely a department where DRK has a huge advantage (more defense, two forms of Stun and a WS that drains back 400-600 health every time you use it).