Relic Augments

[Appie]

How you assume counter II on spharai is 15% and dodge II on Glanz is still 5%?

Amazing how you you think I said 15% with Counter II while I said absolutly NOTHING about %'s (read it again I mentioned the counterrate of the basic Spharai but nothing else) and didn't make any assumptions about Glanzfaust's boosts with "II". I know reading is hard late at night, but goddamn.

And ah I see with hitrate I thought you meant acc, but you just mean more hits per melee round. Ok, that works. As for OAT being fixed on Glanzfaust, I don't know, I asked like 3 times in this topic, you even quoted me one time wanting to know the same. So if you read something I didn't, I'm all ears.

Triple "gimped" to main hand only doesn't matter, your crit is gimped to 2mins.

[Atoreis]

Amazing how you you think I said 15% with Counter II while I said absolutly NOTHING about %'s (read it again I mentioned the counterrate of the basic Spharai but nothing else) and didn't make any assumptions about Glanzfaust's boosts with "II". I know reading is hard late at night, but goddamn.

Sorry about that its 4:28 AM and im in abbysea pt XD

[Onorgul]

OAT on Glanzfaust was fixed I think?

No one has confirmed this, which is why I was asking out of whose asshole you pulled your assessment of Glanzfaust. Before we even start imagining that SE has fixed AM3 on Glanzfaust and Kenkonken, let's consider a.) what they said and b.) what else would likely change with it. In regards to A, they said they fixed the augments from Trial of the Magians. The code might be similar, but I doubt it's the same. In regards to B, if they fixed AM3, they'd almost certainly need to fix the triple damage proc on Spharai. So, Appie, have you landed a triple damage swing with your left hand yet? Until someone with Glanzfaust or Kenkonken shows up to demonstrate that AM3 works the way it ought to do, a triple damage proc from the left hand is going to be step one to get me to even contemplate that SE has made a change outside of the Magian weapons.

[Atoreis]

No one has confirmed this, which is why I was asking out of whose asshole you pulled your assessment of Glanzfaust. Before we even start imagining that SE has fixed AM3 on Glanzfaust and Kenkonken, let's consider a.) what they said and b.) what else would likely change with it. In regards to A, they said they fixed the augments from Trial of the Magians. The code might be similar, but I doubt it's the same. In regards to B, if they fixed AM3, they'd almost certainly need to fix the triple damage proc on Spharai. So, Appie, have you landed a triple damage swing with your left hand yet? Until someone with Glanzfaust or Kenkonken shows up to demonstrate that AM3 works the way it ought to do, a triple damage proc from the left hand is going to be step one to get me to even contemplate that SE has made a change outside of the Magian weapons.

You both are right I think :/
I asked jp Glanzfaust owner and from what he told me its still 1 hit but tbh it was autotranslation speaking so everything is still possible.

[Malacite]

No one has confirmed this, which is why I was asking out of whose asshole you pulled your assessment of Glanzfaust. Before we even start imagining that SE has fixed AM3 on Glanzfaust and Kenkonken, let's consider a.) what they said and b.) what else would likely change with it. In regards to A, they said they fixed the augments from Trial of the Magians. The code might be similar, but I doubt it's the same. In regards to B, if they fixed AM3, they'd almost certainly need to fix the triple damage proc on Spharai. So, Appie, have you landed a triple damage swing with your left hand yet? Until someone with Glanzfaust or Kenkonken shows up to demonstrate that AM3 works the way it ought to do, a triple damage proc from the left hand is going to be step one to get me to even contemplate that SE has made a change outside of the Magian weapons.

Didn't someone post a video last week in another thread? I'm pretty sure it showed him attacking twice with both fists vs crabs in Kuftal (though it was late into the video, he was getting shafted on procs for the first few attack rounds o.O) so yes, Glanz has been fixed.

[Appie]

Lol... I think you mean the video from Cream Soda running with Magian OAT, not Glanzfaust. The no procs first few rounds and being in Kuftal sounds far too similar to not be that.

As for triple procs on my offhand, I have been looking for this during my trials, but not very seriously (trial is too mindnumbing for this), but have not noticed any offhand triples.

Edit:
This the video Malacite?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7TX5E7oWkc

I do know somebody with Kenkoken, I could ask him. Don't know why I didn't think of it sooner, that would have it too if Glanzfaust does.

[Malacite]

Oh my bad.

Well, it's the same mod technically so why not? Unless SE is just mean/retarded.

[Zag]

From Kinematics math Spharai is a little ahead of 2-3 footwork ( tho i think his math favor Spharai ). Now Glanzfaust is 2 less base dmg 40% of time close to same att and 5%(?) crit more (thats not counting augments II, which can be +10% now and that will make more att and crit+10%(?)) counter +10 40% of the time(probably) and 10 daley more and 42% more hit rate.

Base dmg per round:
(38+34)*2*1,05=151 with 386 daley thats ~23,5 DPS
(38+32)*2*1,47=205 with 396 daley thats ~31 DPS
Thats not including fSTR which will push Glanzfaust even more over Spharai

There is no way +25att for 60%of time will fill the gap (also 10%crit during focus would beat +25att during nonfocus)

Asuran should be very close in dmg on both and on harder stuff both howling and ascetic will avg do more on Glanz cuz of DA.

Ofc more haste = faster TP = easier AM3 maintaining so yeah which is better depends on support and situation but for zerg which you can start with AM3 Glanzfaust with oat,crit and att during focus is beast.

huh?

1. I thought it was proven that relics x3 proc is equalivent to 10% crit hit rate from multiple BG testers. This is when they were comparing the original spharai to the destroyers on alla forums and on BG. kinematics (sp) and kaeko.

2. Focus gives attack bonus if I remember correctly? But it doesn't give more then +25 attack right? Spharai wins in the attack department even with focus up I believe. Even if glanzfaust has slightly more attack with focus up, focus is not used fulltime and spharai attack is fulltime.

3. Dodge gives lets say +10 now and lets say spharai gives +15 or +20 counter now. Not only is spharai counter higher, but it is also "fulltime" and not just during dodge effect being active.

4. Spharai has 2 more DMG then glanzfaust. It also has less delay.

5. I thought I read in your quote about using howling fists and asuran but maybe it was the poster above you. Spharai you can asuran whenever you want. With glanzfaust you have to constantly hold TP, then WS with a crappy WS (depending on mob of course, but most MNKs don't do very high level HNMs) So asuran is usually better then asc.fury. If you howling fist or asuran spam like someone claimed, then you will lose your aftermath 3 effect eventually. Once Again I favor spharai.

6. Number 6, this is where I finally favor glanzfaust for once. Glanzfaust aftermath effect now lasts 3 mins. So far, it points to only working on 1 hand again during double attack, but it does last 3 mins now and thats very nice. If you both store TP to 300 and pop a NM and pop focus and dodge right there, I believe glanzfaust will win.
HOWEVER, the longer any battle drags on, I think spharai will always pull ahead, especially when you cannot keep AM3 up, OR you have to hold Weaponskills OR your focus and dodge start to wear off.

7. They increased your aftermath effect, they might have increased something on relics like the proc rate % on the hidden effect so time will tell in a few.

8. Relic can do double lvl SC 3 and that does some extra damage. You can self SC it with BRD and COR buffs as seen in some youtube videos. on the same token, that same amount of haste will keep glanzsfaust AM3 up almost always which contradicts my holding TP statement above.

9. The new counter mantle makes counters do up to 300 dmg, probably more with those 30+ DMG weapons. It would favor spharai more then glanzfaust.

10. Final heaven makes some fights go a little smoother like Shadow Lord (S) and Chariots. But Fury can do some nasty DMG on those same mobs 1k+ sometimes.

Last but not least, They are both good and have come a long way in passing destroyers by a large margin. So I'm sure whatever choice a MNK picked, they are happy. Me personally, I would pick Spharai but the DMG is so close now on both of them that glanzfaust might eventually pull ahead next update.

Relic, Mythic, magian weapon? I'm glad to see so many people with different weapons now in the game and not just the same old weapon like destroyers. I seen like 10 different level 80 MNKs with different weapons. (hades, destroyers, lunaris claws, barrucudas(sp),spharai, glanz, OAT 2-3x weapon, store TP claws, and soon enough the empyrean),

[Atoreis]

Ok you guys win
I just want to add that whenever TP feed is any issue Footwork wins hard.
Also idk in Kinematic math asuran avg dmg was higher then tornado. Thats very hard to belive when I see what numbers I got on Tornado. On EP mobs w/o DA its up to 1700 dmg and it actually can DA (even twice) pushing dmg well over 2k. Seriously Spharai makes that difference in Asuran dmg? Its realy hard to belive especially that on footwork your att is also higher.

[Appie]

Would explain why TK still hasn't impressed me...

I don't get it either since everything favors TK: dmg+18 from FW, att boost, +25 dmg shoes, mods worth a fuck. Yet there my Asurans go, on par with TK or better on my +31 dmg Spharai, not even maxed, go figure.

[Zag]

Would explain why TK still hasn't impressed me...

I don't get it either since everything favors TK: dmg+18 from FW, att boost, +25 dmg shoes, mods worth a fuck. Yet there my Asurans go, on par with TK or better on my +31 dmg Spharai, not even maxed, go figure.

Do you use dragon or tornado kick with kick shoes? (dunes are +30 btw not +25 and the new poise shoes are +35 DMG to kicks) and do you use them with footwork active.

I seen dragonkick and tornado with just dune boots and boost do 1300-2100 damage. With boosting 11x and subbing /thf it does even more 2500+ at 300TP. They ARE the sickest weaponskills for MNK in my opinion and asuran seems to cap for me around 1300 at the most I think and 1700 with souleater.

I think DK and TK have a hidden attack bonus, but sometimes they feel like they have an occasional hidden -attack penalty too lol. Sometimes dragonkick can land for 1700 on a mob like Pallas. (Which indicates either an attack bonus like Y/G/K or a DA)

Then at 300TP with boost doing 160 damage the next.... Without footwork or double attacks they average around 600-700 always so I don't understand why they occasionally do 160 damage on (same mob) at 300tp....? Always assumed Dragonkick was 1 hit. So I am not missing 1 of my 2 hits then. Tornado Kick description says its 2-fold though.

[Onorgul]

Would explain why TK still hasn't impressed me...

I don't get it either since everything favors TK: dmg+18 from FW, att boost, +25 dmg shoes, mods worth a fuck. Yet there my Asurans go, on par with TK or better on my +31 dmg Spharai, not even maxed, go figure.

No clue how your numbers are so low. Obviously a D+31 Spharai is going to pump out better Asuran Fists than my old D+18 Destroyers (nearly done with Taipan Fangs so I can finally retire those), but Tornado Kick has been quite strong damage for me using Kyoshu Kyahan and a modified Dragon Kick build. Maybe it's that whole Tarutaru lack of STR and VIT?

[Byrthnoth]

Tornado Kick:
fTP of 2.35 (with gorget), 37% STR, 30% VIT, Base H2H damage + 18 + 25

Asuran Fists:
fTP of 8.1 (with gorget), 10% STR, 10% VIT, Base H2H damage + weapon (31 for you)

I don't really understand how Asuran doesn't win all the time. I guess the attack boost from Footwork?

[Appie]

Do you use dragon or tornado kick with kick shoes? (dunes are +30 btw not +25 and the new poise shoes are +35 DMG to kicks) and do you use them with footwork active.

Dude... cmon.. you did not just ask this...
I obviously speak of Kyoshu Kyahan, considering TK has 3 hits, that 20 acc comes in handy and of course with footwork active, did you even read what you quoted? Why the fuck would I use TK without footwork when I go on about the DMG +18 and the att boost Footwork gives?!

Don't have Poise Shoes (yet?), I guess the 10 base DMG would outweigh the 20 acc.

I seen dragonkick and tornado with just dune boots and boost do 1300-2100 damage. With boosting 11x and subbing /thf it does even more 2500+ at 300TP. They ARE the sickest weaponskills for MNK in my opinion and asuran seems to cap for me around 1300 at the most I think and 1700 with souleater.

That's another thing, the times I use a WS at 300tp is either Ixion (long retired that shit) or once in a blue moon in every other situation. I tp at or slighty above 100% tp about 95% of the time, including my Footwork'd TK's.

Edit:
Hmm, that might explain it Byrthnoth.

[Xanthe]

Tornado Kick:
fTP of 2.35 (with gorget), 37% STR, 30% VIT, Base H2H damage + 18 + 25

Asuran Fists:
fTP of 8.1 (with gorget), 10% STR, 10% VIT, Base H2H damage + weapon (31 for you)

I don't really understand how Asuran doesn't win all the time. I guess the attack boost from Footwork?

Asuran Fists has a fTP of 1.1 with gorget.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Asuran Fists has eight hits.

[Atoreis]

What sets you guys use for those Asurans?
Also i went to test on colibri and was doing asurans and tornado in almost same equip. With 78+52str and 81+11vit with destroyers my max Asuran should be 1621 and highest I did was 1448. With 78+49str and 81+11vit my max tornado should be 1278? I did 1511 (no it wasnt dA i took brutal off and was /nin). My math fail or something is fucked with the formula or i didnt have capped att on asuran? (i had 485 att and was killing colibri outside town). I want to also point out that tornado as 2hit ws suffer less from acc cuz first hit has acc bonus and get more bonus from boost (att from boost works only on 1 hit of asuran or im wrong?). Now when I think of it 1511 Tornado could be cuz none is counting the off hand hit? That would mean offhand on ws can crit (only that way the gap between max from math and 1511 i did could be fill).

[Zag]

Dude... cmon.. you did not just ask this...
I obviously speak of Kyoshu Kyahan, considering TK has 3 hits, that 20 acc comes in handy and of course with footwork active, did you even read what you quoted? Why the fuck would I use TK without footwork when I go on about the DMG +18 and the att boost Footwork gives?!

A Kick Weaponskill with no kick attacks DMG+ feet. NO wonder Dragonkick and Tornado kick don't impress you. They add about 900 dmg to your weaponskill. Seeing as I average 600-700 dmg 90% of the time without my dune boots and 1300-1700 90% with my dune boots. Why would I use 20 acc feet on a 1 hit WS where acc is basically capped. In this case you were referring to Tornado kick though my bad so thats 2 hits 3 hits with DA, still would not use the +20 acc feet for this when dune boots adds +30 base DMG.
no that 20 acc does not come in handy, those boots not that great unless I am using asuran fists with footwork latent on, is the only time I will use those +20 acc kyahan or during hundred fists. I want the poise shoes badly, They might add a few hundred dmg to the dragonkick.

[Onorgul]

Zag, are you incapable of reading English?

[Fiendishone]

Dear Squenix,

Fuck you and your Undead Magian Trials
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...XI/Cannon3.png

Sincerely,
Fiendishone

P.S. Next stop, Attohwa Chasm