Relic Augments

[Appie]

A Kick Weaponskill with no kick attacks DMG+ feet. NO wonder Dragonkick and Tornado kick don't impress you.

I'll try this one more time:

Kyoshu kyahan RareExclusive
[Feet] All Races
DEF:9
Increases "Kick Attacks" damage
Latent effect: Accuracy +20 Attack +20
Lv. 62 MNK


Latent Effect: Accuracy +20 Attack +20

* Active while using Footwork
* Kick Attacks Damage +25
* Effect is cancelled during Hundred Fists, even if Footwork status is active.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Kyoshu_Kyahan

Also Zag, Tornado Kick is 3 hits with no DA, Dragon Kick is 2 hit with no DA. It's just that all the mod shit goes into the first hit and the other hits add 150-250 DMG, which would also explain the 300TP 160 DMG TK's you had.

Zag, are you incapable of reading English?

Seriously, watch him not understand this either...

[Onorgul]

You know, I'm not entirely sure that the second hit of Tornado Kick is unmodified. When I only hit the last strike (or a Double Attack), I've seen myself do a miserable 150-200 damage. I've been working on my Wargfangs down in Toraimarai, though, and if I land one of the two full-TP hits, I'll usually see a return of around 700 damage (for instance, when I'm overkilling), but when I land all three, I've peaked as high as around 1600 damage without Double Attacks. Obviously this is against Easy Prey mobs that are weak to blunt damage, etc. etc., but either my understanding of weaponskill damage is wrong or something is unusual about Tornado Kick and its second strike.

[Clave]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but WS mods(assuming you mean WS secondary attributes) work on all hits of a weapon skill, but fTP is always 1.0 for every hit after the first regardless of TP.

Edit: Hence Asuran having 8.1 total fTP w/ gorget in the example above this very page

[nitsuj]

Dear Squenix,

Fuck you and your Undead Magian Trials
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...XI/Cannon3.png

Sincerely,
Fiendishone

P.S. Next stop, Attohwa Chasm

grats man!

[Max™]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but WS mods(assuming you mean WS secondary attributes) work on all hits of a weapon skill, but fTP is always 1.0 for every hit after the first regardless of TP.

Edit: Hence Asuran having 8.1 total fTP w/ gorget in the example above this very page

Perhaps others, like myself, are used to applying the fTP mods per hit, then summing the number of hits landed.

An 8 hit Asuran has 8.1 fTP, a 4 hit does not.

[Clave]

I didn't think I'd need to say so, but yeah. 8.1 total fTP possible. Obviously less when not all 8 land.

[Atoreis]

Probably Appie wanted to write only first hit getting fTP modyfier and by mistake he wrote "all the mod". All hits of the multihit WS getting WSC of the WS but all hits after 1st have 1.0 fTP. thats why some ppl are writing fTP 8,1 for Asuran which is 8hits (+0,1 from gorget). What suprising the same person who wrote 8,1 for Asuran wanting to show his advantage wrote 2,35 for tornado which is far from true. Tornado is 3,35 + offhand. Now, i always tho offhand dont have WSC but seeing how Kinematics (and he is considered as good mathematician of this game) write the fTP for Tornado

Kinematics(from site with math that link is in this topic few pages back):
Weaponskill (Tornado):
D: 100
WSC: 62
cRatio: 621 / 338 - .35 = 1.487
Damage(F): 4.45 * 1.487 * (100+62) * .95 = 1,018
Damage(nF): 4.45 * 1.487 * (100+62) * .935 = 1,011



4.45 cant be nothing else then 2.35 first hit with gorget 1.0 for 2nd hit and 1.0 for offhand. Thats 4.35 now he assumed 5% from DA on Brutal. Da can kicks in on 1st or/and 2nd hit so amth will be:
(5*5.35+5*5.35+0.25*6.35(0.25 chance for 2x da)+89.75*4.35)/100=4.455
So he assumed offhand also has WSC (every addicional hit from double attack also has WSC but that I knew eariler) which I nerver knew but he probably knows better.

[Max™]

I didn't think I'd need to say so, but yeah. 8.1 total fTP possible. Obviously less when not all 8 land.

Given that it only has 8.1 ftp 66%~ of the time, it isn't really valid to treat it as if it always has 8.1 ftp, which was my point I didn't think I'd have to explain.

[Appie]

Probably Appie wanted to write only first hit getting fTP modyfier and by mistake he wrote "all the mod".

Yup, my bad.

[Byrthnoth]

Given that it only has 8.1 ftp 66%~ of the time, it isn't really valid to treat it as if it always has 8.1 ftp, which was my point I didn't think I'd have to explain.

<____________<

(1.1*.95 + 7*.95)/(2.35*.95 + 1*.95) = (8.1*.95)/(3.35*.95) = 8.1/3.35 = 2.42

Why would you apply an accuracy correction to fTP? In the long run, it's going to average out to affect both WSs the same as long as you have capped accuracy.

If you're not running capped accuracy in your weaponskill set, then Asuran is more affected because the larger part of its fTP doesn't get the first-hit accuracy bonus. However, Asuran's mods are shittier so you'd actually expect people to be more likely to cap hit rate during it. Any benefit the uncapped Tornado kick people would experience would be assumed to be greater than their loss of hit-rate, so you can discount it in that regard as well.

And yeah, I forgot that Tornado kick is a two-hit WS. It's not like I play monk.

(Base H2H + 18 + 25 + Mods (30% VIT, 37.5% STR) + fSTR)*3.35
(Base H2H + 32 + Mods (10% VIT/STR) + fSTR)*8.1

Lets give the hypothetical monk 130 STR and 90 VIT so we can lean it towards Tornado.

(34 + 18 + 25 + .85*(130*.375 + 90*.3) + ~12)*3.35 = D152*3.35 = 509.2 <-Tornado
(34 + 32 + .85*(130*.1 + 90*.1) + ~11)*8.1 = D95*8.1 = 769.5 <- Asuran

Tornado is also affected by Brutal Earring, so you can add another 5% on there. It also gets a 10% Attack bonus, so you can add at least 10% damage on there. Most Monks don't WS in 130 STR and 90 VIT on Asuran, subtract maybe 12 base damage from it. (100STR/70VIT instead). Now you're seeing how they could get close. Does Footwork+Tornado Kick also get a high DA rate (aka, can Kicks proc like DAs)?

People have said they're close, Appie (a taru if I'm not mistaken, and thus modifier challenged) has said that his Asuran wins consistently. I'm trying to see how they could at least be equal. Where's the missing piece?

Edit: If you use 4.45 for Tornado Kick (includes DA and apparently another offhand?), then it is definitely closer.
152*4.45 = 676.5 vs. 769.5
Subtract off the base damage from Asuran (672) and you're there even without factoring the 10% Attack

[Atoreis]

<____________<

(1.1*.95 + 7*.95)/(2.35*.95 + 1*.95) = (8.1*.95)/(3.35*.95) = 8.1/3.35 = 2.42

Why would you apply an accuracy correction to fTP? In the long run, it's going to average out to affect both WSs the same as long as you have capped accuracy.

If you're not running capped accuracy in your weaponskill set, then Asuran is more affected because the larger part of its fTP doesn't get the first-hit accuracy bonus. However, Asuran's mods are shittier so you'd actually expect people to be more likely to cap hit rate during it. Any benefit the uncapped Tornado kick people would experience would be assumed to be greater than their loss of hit-rate, so you can discount it in that regard as well.

And yeah, I forgot that Tornado kick is a two-hit WS. It's not like I play monk.

(Base H2H + 18 + 25 + Mods (30% VIT, 37.5% STR) + fSTR)*3.35
(Base H2H + 32 + Mods (10% VIT/STR) + fSTR)*8.1

Lets give the hypothetical monk 130 STR and 90 VIT so we can lean it towards Tornado.

(34 + 18 + 25 + .85*(130*.375 + 90*.3) + ~12)*3.35 = D152*3.35 = 509.2 <-Tornado
(34 + 32 + .85*(130*.1 + 90*.1) + ~11)*8.1 = D95*8.1 = 769.5 <- Asuran

Tornado is also affected by Brutal Earring, so you can add another 5% on there. It also gets a 10% Attack bonus, so you can add at least 10% damage on there. Most Monks don't WS in 130 STR and 90 VIT on Asuran, subtract maybe 12 base damage from it. (100STR/70VIT instead). Now you're seeing how they could get close. Does Footwork+Tornado Kick also get a high DA rate (aka, can Kicks proc like DAs)?

People have said they're close, Appie (a taru if I'm not mistaken, and thus modifier challenged) has said that his Asuran wins consistently. I'm trying to see how they could at least be equal. Where's the missing piece?

Missing piece is that tornado is 3hit 2hit+offhand and its base is 4,35 not 3,35
Also wtf with +25 dmg from feet? I have Poise shoes and If you matching footwork with Spharai maybe take this as feet piece lol (its +35 btw)
Also 37 dmg from skill on 80 with merits.

[Byrthnoth]

Missing piece is that tornado is 3hit 2hit+offhand and its base is 4,35 not 3,35
Also wtf with +25 dmg from feet? I have Poise shoes and If you matching footwork with Spharai maybe take this as feet piece lol (its +35 btw)
Also 37 dmg from skill on 80 with merits.

Okay:
(37 + 18 + 35 + .85*(130*.375 + 90*.3) + ~12)*3.35 = D162*4.45 = 720.9 <-Tornado
(37 + 32 + .85*(130*.1 + 90*.1) + ~11)*8.1 = D98*8.1 = 793.8 <- Asuran

Now they're a 10% attack bonus away from each other. Also, as other have said, the WSC gets applied to all hits of the WS. Because you're using Poise shoes, that also avoids the 20 Acc/Attack you could have gotten from the other shoes so we can remove that as a factor.

[Atoreis]

Now the question is if boost apply to all hits of the WS or just first. Anyone saw test of that or I will need to kill some crabs?

[Max™]

<____________<

(1.1*.95 + 7*.95)/(2.35*.95 + 1*.95) = (8.1*.95)/(3.35*.95) = 8.1/3.35 = 2.42

Why would you apply an accuracy correction to fTP? In the long run, it's going to average out to affect both WSs the same as long as you have capped accuracy.

I'm not applying an accuracy correction, when I mention the fTP of a WS, I refer to the first hit modifier, because it is a given that any additional hits add 1.0, so one should account for that accordingly.

If you have capped WS acc in your asuran set, then the fTP you're working with most of the time is gonna be closer to 5.37, not 8.1, and not the 7.695 you got in the quote above. You can't just cancel the *.95 on both sides like that, it should be multiplied by the number of hits first.

It isn't (8.1*.95)/(3.35*.95)=2.42, it's (8.1*(.95*.95*.95*.95*.95*.95*.95*.95))/(4.35*(.95*.95*.95))=1.44~, as I recall.


Using the damage values posted upthread+corrected fTP for capped accuracy:
(D162*3.7), Tornado=604,
(D98*5.37), Asuran=526.

[Vodou]

Now the question is if boost apply to all hits of the WS or just first. Anyone saw test of that or I will need to kill some crabs?

Answer the question of whether you should boost first.

Kinematics didn't think so because of how the JA delay affects total damage. Apparently, it hurts the OAT 2-3 weapon's overall damage, while it was neutral on maxed Spharai using asuran.

Regarding boost, yes it affects all hits, from what I've seen looking at AF damage results. I'd assume it affects all mnk weapon skills as well (on all swings.)

[Atoreis]

Answer the question of whether you should boost first.

Kinematics didn't think so because of how the JA delay affects total damage. Apparently, it hurts the OAT 2-3 weapon's overall damage, while it was neutral on maxed Spharai using asuran.

Regarding boost, yes it affects all hits, from what I've seen looking at AF damage results. I'd assume it affects all mnk weapon skills as well (on all swings.)

well I will go to BT try steelshells with lowest att i can possible have and make few asurans. Then I will boost myself up to maximum 999+ and my asuran should do like 2-3 times more dmg. That will be good test?

[Byrthnoth]

I'm not applying an accuracy correction, when I mention the fTP of a WS, I refer to the first hit modifier, because it is a given that any additional hits add 1.0, so one should account for that accordingly.

If you have capped WS acc in your asuran set, then the fTP you're working with most of the time is gonna be closer to 5.37, not 8.1, and not the 7.695 you got in the quote above. You can't just cancel the *.95 on both sides like that, it should be multiplied by the number of hits first.

It isn't (8.1*.95)/(3.35*.95)=2.42, it's (8.1*(.95*.95*.95*.95*.95*.95*.95*.95))/(4.35*(.95*.95*.95))=1.44~, as I recall.


Using the damage values posted upthread+corrected fTP for capped accuracy:
(D162*3.7), Tornado=604,
(D98*5.37), Asuran=526.

Law of large numbers, the more samples you have the closer your sample average approaches the population(/true) average.

If you use Asuran fists an infinite number of times with 95% accuracy on your first hit, then in the long run your first hit does:
1.1 fTP * 95% hit rate worth of damage on average.
Sure, sometimes it'll hit and sometimes it'll miss, but if you're hitting 95% of the time and the missing 5% of the time, you'll eventually even to 95% modifier.

If you use Asuran Fists an infinite number of times with 95% accuracy on your second hit, then in the long run your second hit does:
1 fTP*95% hit rate worth of damage

etc. ...

1.1*.95 + 1*.95... out to the 8th hit turns into:
.95* (1.1 + 1 +1 +1 +1 ...) which turns into:
8.1*.95 = 7.695

.95^8 is the odds of landing a full 8-hit Asuran, not the average number of hits you'll land per weaponskill.

[Max™]

Uh, the number you gave certainly isn't the average per WS, which is important when comparing the average damage of two different WSes, one would think.

The total collection of hits approaches a 95% accuracy level if sorted per hit, 1st hit: 95%, second hit: 95%, third hit: 95%, but if you sort by WSes... like, the game does when you use a WS, the accuracy per WS will still cap out at 66%.

If you have a collection of an arbitrarily large number of attempted hits, with a 95% accuracy level for them all, the odds of a random sample of 8 attempts being hits which landed is still 66%.


The odds of flipping a coin 100 times, and getting 100 heads in a row is like (1/2)^100, roughly 30 zeros after the decimal point.

If I had just gotten 99 heads in a row, the likelihood of getting heads with the next flip is 1/2, the coin doesn't know or care about those other tosses, they only matter when I take the probability of finding the entire set as a whole, each toss of a fair coin will still land heads 1/2 the time.

[FailureMidgard]

Uh, the number you gave certainly isn't the average per WS, which is important when comparing the average damage of two different WSes, one would think.

The total collection of hits approaches a 95% accuracy level if sorted per hit, 1st hit: 95%, second hit: 95%, third hit: 95%, but if you sort by WSes... like, the game does when you use a WS, the accuracy per WS will still cap out at 66%.

If you have a collection of an arbitrarily large number of attempted hits, with a 95% accuracy level for them all, the odds of a random sample of 8 attempts being hits which landed is still 66%.


The odds of flipping a coin 100 times, and getting 100 heads in a row is like (1/2)^100, like thirty zeros after the decimal point.

If I had just gotten 99 heads in a row, the likelihood of getting heads with the next flip is 1/2, the coin doesn't know or care about those other tosses, they only matter when I take the probability of finding the entire set as a whole, each toss of a fair coin will still land heads 1/2 the time.

Uhhh, no, there's a 66% chance of landing 8 hits, then there's a 28% chance of landing 7. Let's assume the worst and say the remaining 6% is a chance to land 0, the average hits landed per Asuran is now .66*8+.28*7+.06*0=7.24 average hits landed.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue here, but Byrth's number looks pretty correct for average hits landed, as the chances of landing 7 or 8 hits is 94% (with the bulk being 8 hits). The average is definitely over 7.

[CDF]

Uh, the number you gave certainly isn't the average per WS, which is important when comparing the average damage of two different WSes, one would think.

The total collection of hits approaches a 95% accuracy level if sorted per hit, 1st hit: 95%, second hit: 95%, third hit: 95%, but if you sort by WSes... like, the game does when you use a WS, the accuracy per WS will still cap out at 66%.

If you have a collection of an arbitrarily large number of attempted hits, with a 95% accuracy level for them all, the odds of a random sample of 8 attempts being hits which landed is still 66%.


The odds of flipping a coin 100 times, and getting 100 heads in a row is like (1/2)^100, roughly 30 zeros after the decimal point.

If I had just gotten 99 heads in a row, the likelihood of getting heads with the next flip is 1/2, the coin doesn't know or care about those other tosses, they only matter when I take the probability of finding the entire set as a whole, each toss of a fair coin will still land heads 1/2 the time.

Just stop.