Relic Augments

[Byrthnoth]

I'm not saying that you're going to get 8/8 hits 95% of the time, therefore we should use 8.1 fTP.

I'm saying that, with capped hit rate, you will hit 95% of the time per swing on average. This is the definition of capped hit rate. Therefore, if we correct the fTP for accuracy (as you seem to want to do) we would end up with 8.1*.95 fTP instead of 8.1*.95^8 fTP.

8*.95 = 7.6 =
8*.95^8 + 7*.95^7*.05*8 + 6*.95^6*.05^2*28 + 5*.95^5*.05^3*56 + 4*.95^4*.05^4*70 + 3*.95^3*.05^5*56+ 2*.95^2*.05^6*28 + 1*.95*.05^7
= Average number of hits per Asuran Fists with 95% Accuracy, sans gorget because it makes it that much harder.

When you say it's 5.3 or whatever, you negate all combinations of hits below 8/8.

[Max™]

True, and I see where the confusion came from now, I was originally talking about the max accuracy per WS, which is capped at 66% for Asuran, making it odd to compare the two as though Asuran was always 8 hits, or Tornado was always 3 hits.

He was talking about the average number of hits, was wondering why we kept talking past each other.

Either way, my point was that it seemed odd to some to list it as 8.1 because most people are used to calculating the fTP/mods for the first hit, then adding hits accordingly. I've got an odd habit of wanting to compare the max number of hits you get at capped accuracy, when stacking full fTP totals.

[FailureMidgard]

True, and I see where the confusion came from now, I was originally talking about the max accuracy per WS, which is capped at 66% for Asuran, making it odd to compare the two as though Asuran was always 8 hits, or Tornado was always 3 hits.

He was talking about the average number of hits, was wondering why we kept talking past each other.

Either way, my point was that it seemed odd to some to list it as 8.1 because most people are used to calculating the fTP/mods for the first hit, then adding hits accordingly. I've got an odd habit of wanting to compare the max number of hits you get at capped accuracy, when stacking full fTP totals.

The max number of hits you can get at capped accuracy is 8. If you mean the chance of getting max number of hits at capped accuracy...sorry, but that's an irrelevant number, and you are definitely wrong for trying to use it. Average hits is correct, or just max number of hits like he originally did will work because it cancels out assuming same accuracy.

[Max™]

As I said, it's an odd urge to crunch numbers more than is needed, but comparing the damage of the two WSes based on the full hit fTP returns really fucked with me for some reason.

I meant to say the accuracy of the max number of hits, dunno why I turned that around.

[AoshiZ]

Is it still unknown whether double attacks increase the overall accuracy? Its known that 8 hits is the maximum, but i have yet to see empirical data to prove or disprove whether the following possibilities:
1. proccing double attack on asuran is possible and the game takes the first 8 hits.
2. the game disables double attack proc all together on asuran.
3. the game allows double attack on asuran but only cares about the first 8 hits or misses (effectively being the same as option 2)

If 1 were true the culmulative probability of hitting all 8 hits would be higher with war sub and double attack items.

[CDF]

It isn't that difficult to show. Tabulate counts for all possible TP return values and compare to theoretical probability distributions for 1 and 2 or 3 (same shit as for showing that DA can proc on EXACTLY two hits of a multi-hit WS, not any two hits up to two max).

[AoshiZ]

I think difficult is a relative term.

This would require sample space that has a respectable standard deviation to have a small enough margin of error. Since people would need to count TP return the results would have to be done by hand unless the new parsers can extract TP information from memory which i don't think they do.

[CDF]

Did you know kparser has more than an Offense tab?

Sarcasm aside, I'm not going to sit here and do a sample size calculation because I would have to determine the probability distributions being compared, but 150 WS should be good enough based on prior experience with the DA-WS situation.

[AoshiZ]

Did you know kparser has more than an Offense tab?

Sarcasm aside, ...

The way you state this (with the sarcasm) it makes it sound like Kparser doesn't have the necessary feature? Sorry i'm clueless because i've never used Kparser.

[CDF]

I have to give certain cues or phrase my statements a certain way to indicate to others that I'm being sarcastic? Really!?

[fulgore]

mandau 80 done finally too late to upload a damn pic

[Vodou]

Is it still unknown whether double attacks increase the overall accuracy? Its known that 8 hits is the maximum, but i have yet to see empirical data to prove or disprove whether the following possibilities:
1. proccing double attack on asuran is possible and the game takes the first 8 hits.
2. the game disables double attack proc all together on asuran.
3. the game allows double attack on asuran but only cares about the first 8 hits or misses (effectively being the same as option 2)

If 1 were true the culmulative probability of hitting all 8 hits would be higher with war sub and double attack items.

To correct the point, it's not "8 hits is the maximum."

It's 8 swings is the maximum in a round.

AFAIK, thia is how people know:

1) if you wield ridill and KC (or just KC), you never have a round with 9 or more swings

2) if you use AF on a mob and watch your tp, (assuming no stp equipment) you don't get a full damage AF with 8 tp, which presumably (I think?) you would get if you missed the first two hits, but then DA's enough to land 8 hits

I'm 99% certain on the first and fairly certain on the second, but hope someone will chime in and correct that if it's in error.

ninja edit...hopefully to be more accurate

[Zag]

put it this way.

You forgot to factor in dargon kicks and tornado kicks hidden attack boost in your equation I think. Also, the equation is wrong because dune boots and poise shoes are +30 and +35 DMG respectively not +20 and +25 DMG.
2nd, someones equation, (I forgot who, cause im posting) assumed all 8 asuran fists would land. I don't consider tornado a multihit weapon into which you need acc gear for it.

3rd, depending on the mob and if all 8 hits can land will determine if asuran is better or not. If all 8 hits land on that particular mob(lesser colibre at lvl 80), then asuran will be consistant and will be better then your DK or TK. If all 8 hits cannot land (Tiamat at level 75 MNK), then your kick attack will obviously be stronger on that mob then Asuran. Tiamat is just an example guys to prove a point, I know you won't bring MNK to a damn tiamat.

The cap on asuran seems to be about 1600 with perfect gear and the cap on Dragon/tornado kick with perfect gear exceeds over 2000 damage without Sneak attack.

Its a proven FACT that the Dragon kick is better then Asuran fists on highest Spike damage. However, shit is SITUATIONAL in this game and it doesn't mean that Asuran cannot beat it in CONSISTANT damage vs a certain a mob, cause Asuran can beat it.

Dragon kick won't always do more then 600 dmg on a easy prey mob but Asuran fists will always nail over 1100 on an easy prey mob.

Also take into account that DK and TK are unrealiable without high amounts of TP and/or Footwork.

Verdict: All 3 Weaponskill are good and are situational so everyone can stop arguing. I use like 5 different WS on my MNK depending on mob.

merit: Asuran fists all the way.
Shadow Lord (S): Asc.Fury completely owns him.
Besieged mobs: Asc. Fury.
Dark Ixion and King Behemoth: Dragon kick with /thf does over 1200 dmg.

Tornado and Dragon kick seem exactly to same to me except they open and close different skillchains but I can be wrong.

[Onorgul]

Has anyone actually demonstrated an Attack Bonus on Tornado Kick? I assume it is there because it is an ungodly beating, but I'd love to see proof.

And if you're not keeping at least 80% Accuracy on during Tornado Kick, you're doing it wrong. The second and third strikes are a significant part of the weaponskill's damage, to say nothing of wanting to land as many Double Attacks as possible.

[Appie]

put it this way.

You forgot to factor in dargon kicks and tornado kicks hidden attack boost in your equation I think. Also, the equation is wrong because dune boots and poise shoes are +30 and +35 DMG respectively not +20 and +25 DMG.
2nd, someones equation, (I forgot who, cause im posting) assumed all 8 asuran fists would land. I don't consider tornado a multihit weapon into which you need acc gear for it.

And Zag strikes again:

Okay:
(37 + 18 + 35 + .85*(130*.375 + 90*.3) + ~12)*3.35 = D162*4.45 = 720.9 <-Tornado
(37 + 32 + .85*(130*.1 + 90*.1) + ~11)*8.1 = D98*8.1 = 793.8 <- Asuran

Now they're a 10% attack bonus away from each other. Also, as other have said, the WSC gets applied to all hits of the WS. Because you're using Poise shoes, that also avoids the 20 Acc/Attack you could have gotten from the other shoes so we can remove that as a factor.

Please give me a quote where +20 DMG is used for Kick boots, since you can read shit others can't.

Verdict: All 3 Weaponskill are good and are situational so everyone can stop arguing. I use like 5 different WS on my MNK depending on mob.

I liked the "argument" tbh, showed me why I tend to get better results on Asurans, so it's much appreciated.

As for every WS having its use. That's true, but TK and DK are at the end of spectrum on that for me, I even pick Raging Fists over that if I got excessive TP and hope for some DA's and/or make some nice Fusion. Ixion is about the only exception for a DK/TK.

[Zag]

And Zag strikes again:

Please give me a quote where +20 DMG is used for Kick boots, since you can read shit others can't.


I liked the "argument" tbh, showed me why I tend to get better results on Asurans, so it's much appreciated.

As for every WS having its use. That's true, but TK and DK are at the end of spectrum on that for me, I even pick Raging Fists over that if I got excessive TP and hope for some DA's and/or make some nice Fusion. Ixion is about the only exception for a DK/TK.

Someone else had +25 DMG in their equation on the last page. Wasn't talking about your equation, and Dragon Kick owns! Also creates an godly light SC In king Ranperre Tomb camp. (I got invited to an exp pt there last week with all MNKs and it brought a tear to my eye, old school!!!!)

EDIT

QUOTE=Appie;3954853]Would explain why TK still hasn't impressed me...

I don't get it either since everything favors TK: dmg+18 from FW, att boost, +25 dmg shoes, mods worth a fuck. Yet there my Asurans go, on par with TK or better on my +31 dmg Spharai, not even maxed, go figure.[/QUOTE].

Sorry did not read your equation just skimmed through it last time, this is where i seen the +25 DMG shoes thingy. Its no biggie anyway, its probably just a typo.

[Appie]

It wasn't a typo, I was talking about DMG+25 shoes, however Byrthnoth was not and you talking about an outcome being wrong because he used the wrong shoes while your shoes are right there in another calculation. Byrthnoth did two, one for DMG +25 and one for DMG +35. Seriously stop skimming posts, it's becoming stupid.

[Zag]

This coming from a dude who has spharai and cannot land a dragon kick over 1k, its no wonder ppl thought destroyers were better. I can't read that albert einstein formula gibberish anyway, but i could read +25 DMG shoes cause that was in english so w/e.

[Appie]

Once again, where did I claim I couldn't do DK's over 1k? Need to borrow my lenses so you can actually read this topic before posting?

Don't make me dig through screenshots, I'm sure I can find some nice DK's, including Ixion DK's which you love so much. Hell, back in the day I used DK exclusively one 2hour KRT pt long with friends, because I like kicking up dirt and it was doing good damage (note: not the best, just good). Long before footwork, long before I knew half of what I do now and loooooooong before half the gear I have now.

[Zag]

you mad? Its just a game.... I got done banging my boss who is a property manager of a casino who is married to a husband who works at the same job as me. So I am dead man tomorrow... but before I die.... I want to say, that I want some spharai like you but unfortunely, I won't get them.

Good game, its 7:41am, nice meeting you. Nice arguing with you dawg. Peace! Dig me up a screenshot and throw it in my coffin please. not trolling btw.