Relic Augments

[Atoreis]

Dragon kick won't always do more then 600 dmg on a easy prey mob but Asuran fists will always nail over 1100 on an easy prey mob.

Also take into account that DK and TK are unrealiable without high amounts of TP and/or Footwork.

I dont realy understand when Dragon kick wont do more then 600 dmg on ep and asuran will always be over 1100 on this mob unless you talking about Dragon kick missing.

100 TP TK dmg is only beaten by spharai and glanzenfaust Asuran's
200 TP TK probaby beats all Asurans (maybe equal to realy good ones from spharai but doubt as I usually got 1800-1900 at 200 tp)
300 TP 1900 its minimal dmg on EP

Yesterday on LBC I did 1600 with 1 double attack proc at 120TP.

[Limlight]

you mad? Its just a game.... I got done banging my boss who is a property manager of a casino who is married to a husband who works at the same job as me. So I am dead man tomorrow... but before I die.... I want to say, that I want some spharai like you but unfortunely, I won't get them.

Good game, its 7:41am, nice meeting you. Nice arguing with you dawg. Peace! Dig me up a screenshot and throw it in my coffin please. not trolling btw.

Dear Zag

you're a terrible troll, do us a favor and never have children.

Best Regards,

~The World~

[Zag]

Dear Zag

you're a terrible troll, do us a favor and never have children.

Best Regards,

~The World~

Forgot to mention, I shot a blank yesterday, so that won't be a problem. BTW I still haven't fallen asleep. I think it was the drink I drank at 9:00pm-ish.

Dragon kick beats Asuran fists, end of discussion.

[Neosutra]

I dont realy understand when Dragon kick wont do more then 600 dmg on ep and asuran will always be over 1100 on this mob unless you talking about Dragon kick missing.

100 TP TK dmg is only beaten by spharai and glanzenfaust Asuran's
200 TP TK probaby beats all Asurans (maybe equal to realy good ones from spharai but doubt as I usually got 1800-1900 at 200 tp)
300 TP 1900 its minimal dmg on EP

Yesterday on LBC I did 1600 with 1 double attack proc at 120TP.

Is this with kick attacks up? I havent played with mnk much since update and just got it to 80 last night and started playing with TK. Was doing about the same as AF on Tahrongi Mandies (750ish damage). That was with no attack buffs or food on IT Mobs.

[Limlight]

neo we should totally do oa3 h2h together! that tornado kick testing tiger did really has me interested. (on KI mnk forums)

[Appie]

Well there we go:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...715_180553.png
Good day blunt resistant fuck mobs, granted not half as bad as a dark based WS on bones that Fiendishone had to do.

What would make a nice sample size to determine the counter increase? 3hours of having my ass kicked? More?

[CDF]

Is it still unknown whether double attacks increase the overall accuracy? Its known that 8 hits is the maximum, but i have yet to see empirical data to prove or disprove whether the following possibilities:
1. proccing double attack on asuran is possible and the game takes the first 8 hits.
2. the game disables double attack proc all together on asuran.
3. the game allows double attack on asuran but only cares about the first 8 hits or misses (effectively being the same as option 2)

If 1 were true the culmulative probability of hitting all 8 hits would be higher with war sub and double attack items.

Fine. Here's how to go about showing whether DA increases the average number of hits of Asuran Fists or not.

First, I know (collective "we" is bullshit here) that previous evidence points to exactly 2 DA procs for a multi-hit weapon skill, and suppose for the purposes of specifying a probability model for the number of landed hits of Asuran Fists that this could be true for Asuran Fists as well.

Also suppose the maximum number of landed hits is 8 since we are speculating about whether DA has any effect on Asuran Fists at all. (If DA procs followed the eight normal attacks of Asuran Fists and an eight-attack maximum was imposed, we would never be able to observe the DAs. Alternatively, if each of the two DA procs follows each of the first two normal attacks of Asuran Fists and an eight-attack maximum was imposed, there would also be no way to detect the effect of DA. DAs merely replace the last or the last two normal attacks of Asuran Fists under an eight-attack maximum.) It follows that the probability of an 8-hit Asuran would be higher with some DA.

Then the probability model with 2 DA procs has the hypothetical 9-hit and 10-hit Asuran Fists reduced to the 8-hit case. Since we want to know whether DA actually has some effect, it would make sense to obtain an estimate of the DA rate from the count data for the number of hits of Asuran Fists (based on TP return).

Of course, if DA has nothing to do with Asuran Fists, then the observed DA rate should statistically be zero, and if we determine that the DA rate is statistically "too low," then we should reasonably conclude that DA has no effect on Asuran Fists.

The following image illustrates the (approximate) sampling distributions of the observed DA rate ("p.hat"), based on the above probability model (given 95% hit rate), under two scenarios given a sample size of 150.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4455/null.png

The first, "null" scenario (which encompasses the three situations I described where DA has no effect) holds that DA has (effectively or absolutely) nothing to do with Asuran Fists, and the 95th percentile of the point estimator (the observed DA rate) is .1244176, so under the conceit of traditional hypothesis testing, if a type I error of 5% is acceptable one rejects the "null" when the observed DA rate is higher than 12.44%.

Now, if it's actually true that there is an 8-landed hit maximum imposed so that DA increases the average number of hits of Asuran Fists (the "alternative" hypothesis), then the probability of rejecting the "null" would be about .64 given a DA rate is 15% (attained with /WAR and Brutal Earring), so if you want to increase that probability, increase the sample size and/or increase the DA rate. Actually, I would consider that probability fairly high given a sample size of "only" 150.

[Atoreis]

Is this with kick attacks up? I havent played with mnk much since update and just got it to 80 last night and started playing with TK. Was doing about the same as AF on Tahrongi Mandies (750ish damage). That was with no attack buffs or food on IT Mobs.

Footwork, Poise shoes, chaos roll and fighter roll, 2x march and im just soloing LBC with SAM just doing WS from time to time (we did f1 f2 ramparts then on gears floor we just pulling w/e it links or not, just kill as many as possible to get some ittem from chests, then on boss floor i solo for minimal tp gain and even that HM sometimes left me with 2HP I have no trouble tanking. Actually it didnt hit me even once yesterday (beside TP moves ofc), all that went thru shadows was countered and 90% of those counters was intensionaly with perfect counter up.

[AoshiZ]

To correct the point, it's not "8 hits is the maximum."

It's 8 swings is the maximum in a round.

AFAIK, thia is how people know:

1) if you wield ridill and KC (or just KC), you never have a round with 9 or more swings

2) if you use AF on a mob and watch your tp, (assuming no stp equipment) you don't get a full damage AF with 8 tp, which presumably (I think?) you would get if you missed the first two hits, but then DA's enough to land 8 hits

I'm 99% certain on the first and fairly certain on the second, but hope someone will chime in and correct that if it's in error.

ninja edit...hopefully to be more accurate

The problem here 1) is a strong assumption that is made that the WS mechanics are the same as regular hits. Which could be a logical assumption in some cases however the incongruities of the two systems can allow your statement to be speculation at best. Some incongruities include:
1. Multi hit procs do not proc on multi hit WSs.
2. Multi hit(Kraken ridill but not refering to Sea weapons) procs connection with DA is non-existent (in other words they are mutually exclusive)
4. Multi hit WS's damage calculation for proceeding hits do not follow the same calculation for the initial hit.
5. There are existing arguments to the number of times DA can proc on a multi hit WS. (including which hits it can proc on)
These incongruities alone can be enough to say that they system mechanics can be different.

Your argument for 2) is actually a pretty good argument and I haven't watched TP return enough to see a 8 TP asuran. Anyone?


To CDF: Thanks for the breakdown on the Mathematical Aspect of the testing. I really appreciate it.

[Rooney]

100 TP TK dmg is only beaten by spharai and glanzenfaust Asuran's

With dune boots and footwork, I've yet to see TK top ~1250 without a double attack. Meanwhile, my asurans do 1300-1400 with destroyers. This is with identical buffs/TP. Better weapons are only going to push asuran further ahead.

Unless you have excessive TP, I really don't see how TK wins, even with everything in it's favor. To top it off, it has terrible SC properties. Exceptionally situational WS in my book.

[CDF]

Your argument for 2) is actually a pretty good argument and I haven't watched TP return enough to see a 8 TP asuran.

Even if an 8 TP Asuran is possible, under the situation you posited, it is about a 1-in-26797 event, it would take a while to observe it (and if it's not possible, you would need to do a lot of WS to show statistically it is unlikely). Focusing on the rare event is not very productive.

[Atoreis]

With dune boots and footwork, I've yet to see TK top ~1250 without a double attack. Meanwhile, my asurans do 1300-1400 with destroyers. This is with identical buffs/TP. Better weapons are only going to push asuran further ahead.

Unless you have excessive TP, I really don't see how TK wins, even with everything in it's favor. To top it off, it has terrible SC properties. Exceptionally situational WS in my book.

I went on colibri and did like 50 Ws with max vit str gear (which is hard to use every time on asuran) and asuran was 1250-1420 and TK was 1300-1500 w/o DA. On LBC Asuran was much lower then TK (thats probably cuz my nprmal Asuran set has more acc/att then max vit/str i used for colibri) Then again im using boost on TK...

[Onorgul]

With dune boots and footwork, I've yet to see TK top ~1250 without a double attack. Meanwhile, my asurans do 1300-1400 with destroyers. This is with identical buffs/TP. Better weapons are only going to push asuran further ahead.

Your weaponskill gear must be half-assed, then. At bare minimum, I've seen my Kyoshu Kyahan + Tornado Kick perform identically to Destroyers + Asuran Fists, and that's against Easy Prey mobs doing various Magian trials. Peaks on Tornado Kick have obviously been much higher, as have been the lows, but even then Tornado Kick's average has been a bit better than Asuran Fists (NB: I don't have a Too Weak macro for Asuran Fists). At worst, Footwork + Tornado Kick should be on par with standard Asuran Fists (Spharai 80, Glanzfaust 80, and maybe Lunaris Claws excluded) over a statistically significant period of time. Of course, you shouldn't be using Footwork without at least OA2 claws, OA3 preferred. With sparse buffs, because no amount of BG theorymath is going to make three Bards and a Corsair show up to my lowman events, Tornado Kick is the clearly superior option against high level targets.

[Neoex]

Im finally getting around to do these trials on my Bravura and christ on a fucking bike, I would level WHM or BST than this shit.. I am about to start 1500 plantoids

Any suggestions on low HP mobs with minimal TP moves,
I have a RDM and BRD PL to speed things up here are my choices:

Flytraps
Funguars
Goobbues
Morbols
Mandragora
Rafflesia
Sabotenders
Saplings
Treants

Any advice?

[Taint]

Im finally getting around to do these trials on my Bravura and christ on a fucking bike, I would level WHM or BST than this shit.. I am about to start 1500 plantoids

Any suggestions on low HP mobs with minimal TP moves,
I have a RDM and BRD PL to speed things up here are my choices:

Flytraps
Funguars
Goobbues
Morbols
Mandragora
Rafflesia
Sabotenders
Saplings
Treants

Any advice?

My advise is to find a camp you can access quickly and easily. I'm in the middle of trial 3 but I find it very helpfuly to be able to get to camp fast and kill a few mobs between events and camps. Those 10-30 between kills add up very fast.

[benny]

Boya and Grauberg both have a decent number of EP funguars that are quite easy but they may be camp heavily for other weapon trials, depending on when you go.

[Vodou]

Even if an 8 TP Asuran is possible, under the situation you posited, it is about a 1-in-26797 event, it would take a while to observe it (and if it's not possible, you would need to do a lot of WS to show statistically it is unlikely). Focusing on the rare event is not very productive.

Aye.

Try this a different way then.

If you swing 8 times with /war, what are the odds you will DA once? twice? thrice? Even 4 times!?

Assuming you DA, what are the odds of landing 9 consecutive hits? 10? 11? (Landing 11 consecutive hits is 57%. Landing 12 is 54%.)

What am I missing? Isn't it obvious that if you DA on asuran, that you will see huge asurans, because you will almost always land all the DA's?

Isn't it also likely mnks will see inexplicable tp returns if they DA once, not to mention if they DA two, three or four times?

I'm out if time to do the stats, but hopefully this will be easy for someone to clarify.

[Yabby]

More power to you guys that have finished your upgrade.... every time i log in and try to start it up i get about 40 to 50 in and see how many i have left.... knowing i haven't even started the 2,000 one and ... i just can't do it lol.

[Damane]

More power to you guys that have finished your upgrade.... every time i log in and try to start it up i get about 40 to 50 in and see how many i have left.... knowing i haven't even started the 2,000 one and ... i just can't do it lol.

same here, I just dont know yet if its worth yet to do them all, depending on what might come... down to 800 undead for bravura.

I just want to know where this will bring us.

[CDF]

Aye.

Try this a different way then.

If you swing 8 times with /war, what are the odds you will DA once? twice? thrice? Even 4 times!?

Assuming you DA, what are the odds of landing 9 consecutive hits? 10? 11? (Landing 11 consecutive hits is 57%. Landing 12 is 54%.)

What am I missing? Isn't it obvious that if you DA on asuran, that you will see huge asurans, because you will almost always land all the DA's?

Isn't it also likely mnks will see inexplicable tp returns if they DA once, not to mention if they DA two, three or four times?

I'm out if time to do the stats, but hopefully this will be easy for someone to clarify.

One, the total number of DA per multi-hit weapon skill is "accepted" to be 2 (at least the evidence is there for Penta Thrust). If there is an expectation that DA increases the average number of landed hits of Penta Thrust, any inference should be based on this conservative supposition.

Two, there is some kind of upper limit on the number of landed hits or number of attacks (hits or misses), and it follows from either that no unusual TP returns are possible. Just because no unusual TP returns are possible doesn't necessarily mean DA has no effect. Again, the question was whether the average number of landed hits of Asuran Fists increases in the presence of DA, a possibility if there is an 8-landed hit maximum. (Evidence of an 8-landed hit max is evidence of DA having an effect.)