Puppetmaster Changes

[Tsuko_Asura]

Haha, did someone just pull the "If you don't have this job leveled you're not qualified to speak about it" card?

Time machine~

[Toth]

If you are biased against the job and just want to troll, then yes, I will play that card if needed. It's far more informative to have people familiar with the job's mechanics to contribute to this nuking discussion.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You people think that whoever doesn't agree with how mind-numbingly fantastic puppetmaster is is trolling.

That's not how magic accuracy works.

[miokomioko]

You people think that whoever doesn't agree with how mind-numbingly fantastic puppetmaster is is trolling.

That's not how magic accuracy works.

Then my question is to you, what is your point? Was your goal just to come in here and tell PUPs they still suck and to just level another job? You've even degenerated into just bitching about how Magic Accuracy works.

[Psion]

He doesn't even mention how magic accuracy REALLY works. Anyone can tell you you're wrong. The smart ones actually give examples of why you're wrong and evidence toward what is right, so that an actual discussion can take place. Saying "you're wrong! You don't know anything! Youre credibility is laughable! Blm is better! etc etc" without giving detailed reasons WHY they are better, is ridiculously childish and idiotic. Any pseudoskeptic can do that. hell, any 4 year old can do that.

A true skeptic has no preformed conclusions over anything, but instead weighs evidence on both sides thoroughly before making a decision. And even then, remains open to evidence on both sides, because you never know when more evidence will come around to change your view.

So basically, Tsuko is a dumb troll, and pchan is just.... pchan. <.<

[Shinryuu]

If you are biased against the job and just want to troll, then yes, I will play that card if needed. It's far more informative to have people familiar with the job's mechanics to contribute to this nuking discussion.

Uh, that only works to a very minimal extent. General game mechanics? Everyone has access to 'em. Formulae? Same. Access to FFXIAH or whatever to look up any item ready for comparison? Sure! Point here? You don't need to have a job leveled to answer 99% of the questions aimed at it as long as you're familiar with general FFXI know-how.

Someone who plays WAR a lot can perhaps give more at-hand numbers for stuff like a WAR's WS/TP ratio in certain Limbus zones or whatever, but that's just silly.

[Demosthenes11]

He doesn't even mention how magic accuracy REALLY works. Anyone can tell you you're wrong. The smart ones actually give examples of why you're wrong and evidence toward what is right, so that an actual discussion can take place. Saying "you're wrong! You don't know anything! Youre credibility is laughable! Blm is better! etc etc" without giving detailed reasons WHY they are better, is ridiculously childish and idiotic. Any pseudoskeptic can do that. hell, any 4 year old can do that.

A true skeptic has no preformed conclusions over anything, but instead weighs evidence on both sides thoroughly before making a decision. And even then, remains open to evidence on both sides, because you never know when more evidence will come around to change your view.

So basically, Tsuko is a dumb troll, and pchan is just.... pchan. <.<

http://www.zeldawiki.org/images/9/93...esman_rage.gif

[Toth]

Uh, that only works to a very minimal extent. General game mechanics? Everyone has access to 'em. Formulae? Same. Access to FFXIAH or whatever to look up any item ready for comparison? Sure! Point here? You don't need to have a job leveled to answer 99% of the questions aimed at it as long as you're familiar with general FFXI know-how.

Someone who plays WAR a lot can perhaps give more at-hand numbers for stuff like a WAR's WS/TP ratio in certain Limbus zones or whatever, but that's just silly.

I understand what you are saying but what I mean is that the majority of the time the people who actually have the job and have spent years exploring it have far more weight when it comes to accurately discussing a specific aspect of the job (in this case the BLM frame). Having been BLM since beta and PUP since its inception, I can explain with very strong certainty the strengths both bring to the table in certain situations. If people cannot take first hand testimony from those who know the job best or flame to get rises out of people, how can any serious discussion take place?

[tenkiki]

Uh, that only works to a very minimal extent. General game mechanics? Everyone has access to 'em. Formulae? Same. Access to FFXIAH or whatever to look up any item ready for comparison? Sure! Point here? You don't need to have a job leveled to answer 99% of the questions aimed at it as long as you're familiar with general FFXI know-how.

Someone who plays WAR a lot can perhaps give more at-hand numbers for stuff like a WAR's WS/TP ratio in certain Limbus zones or whatever, but that's just silly.

I find this quite humorous seeing how much actual information there is on PUP. To my knowledge, nobody still knows what the hell Tactical Processor does besides the obvious increased overload rate. Even some of the effects of commonly used attachments are not completely known, like Target maker, attuner, and tranquilizer. The Shikokku body/hand crit damage bonus is still unknown after 2 updates, which seems crazy given Stringing Pummel is a crit based WS.

With regards to the auto's AI, dealing with that is a completely different beast with regards to recast timers and decisions made. My personal peeve is with the maximum deployment range of the automaton, which seems to vary between different mobs (though its maximum nuke distance is the same as us ><), along with the maximum deployment nuke where the automaton doesn't run in, which also varies.

Given the unique intricacies of the job, I feel that PUP is one of those jobs that you actually have to level in order to understand it since it performs differently from every other job. If every other job weren't allowed to directly select their actions, but also had to select an element that influenced the AI's decision based on equipment, then comparisons could be made.

[Narol]

He doesn't even mention how magic accuracy REALLY works.

You're not faring any better on that front, buddy, outside of some vague references to things' int.

[pchan]

So, 6 rounds in total provided that OAT does proc 3 times. Could anyone verify this?

You will not reach anything conclusive like this. Normal DA can proc of both fist, hit can miss, you don't start with a 0 TP but with the tp return of stringing pummel which itself can take plenty of values, and you can have TP overflow. The math behind this is in the magian weapons thread : it gives an average number of round.

With full usu, 95% accuracy, 5% DA (trait) and 40 OAT warfang (360+140 delay) averages 5.034.. rounds while a weapon like mantis is 6.854.. rounds. If you know a bit how your WS works you see that this leads to warfangs<mantis.

[Kyte]

want pup to melee? oh nm get a mnk
want pup to nuke frame? oh nm get a blm
want pup to do both? oh nm your strategy fucking sucks

The comparison was strictly between MNK and PUP. A third job isn't really relevant.

Depending somewhat on buffs, Valoredge can beat a MNK on some higher end monsters. If the monster is being kited, then that helps Valoredge even more since they can hit a moving target more easily.

Obviously MNK can't really supply magical damage, but if you do want to throw BLM in, Spiritwaker can be superior to a BLM if the target's resistance isn't too high and hate management is important.

[Demosthenes11]

why compare a pup solely to a mnk on that kind of specific shit when mnk is just barely more acceptable?
Honestly if you even have to make that comparison then the job fails. I guess if you have nothing better to go on, by all means throw your puppet at shit but in terms of what is more desirable or optimum, pup just isn't in that sentence.

Don't blame people for pointing that kind of stuff out. We don't make the rules we just play the game.

[miokomioko]

Don't blame people for pointing that kind of stuff out. We don't make the rules we just play the game.

Yes, don't blame the trolls that turn threads into flame wars. Blame the make-believe game that they play where everything is always a perfect setup, everyone has the best gear, everyone has every job & merits maxed out, and only fights the same single mob the whole time.

Just like the old saying "shit is situational"... Shit. Is. Situational.

[Kyte]

this was the statement I was refuting:

monk is a dps whore and really doesn't have a lot of place in hnm. pup is not as effective, hence even less desirable in that aspect.

It sounds to me like you yourself are strictly making a comparison between the performance of MNK vs PUP on various HNM. If that isn't what you meant, you should have been more clear. It looked like a silly blanket statement to me.

Honestly if you even have to make that comparison then the job fails. I guess if you have nothing better to go on, by all means throw your puppet at shit but in terms of what is more desirable or optimum, pup just isn't in that sentence.

Well, sticking to the BLM puppet example, I would say one of PUP's best tools is hate-less nuking. In the instances where it is useful, I would say BLM-puppet is in fact better than the BLM for nuking. Those instances? I'll leave listing that up to someone who has used it more.

[Demosthenes11]

this was the statement I was refuting:



It sounds to me like you yourself are strictly making a comparison between the performance of MNK vs PUP on various HNM. If that isn't what you meant, you should have been more clear. It looked like a silly blanket statement to me.

that was from me reading a comparison between the two >.>

Well, sticking to the BLM puppet example, I would say one of PUP's best tools is hate-less nuking. In the instances where it is useful, I would say BLM-puppet is in fact better than the BLM for nuking. Those instances? I'll leave listing that up to someone who has used it more.

I would absolutely agree with you 3 years ago. But it's 2010 and if your blms are raping hate and dying constantly then you need new plds and new blms (blms need to know how to not die when dealing damage, and that doesn't mean stopping). The only application I could see is lowman shit like krab but then the puppet won't have high enough macc and a smn does the job better.

Can it do ok? ya. So can a bst sometimes.

[miokomioko]

Ah yes, as expected. The "if ur having problems, ur doin it wrong" card.

[Demosthenes11]

please enlighten me why tanks shouldnt be capped in hate when its not the first few minutes of a fight

I don't want to derail this thread with telling you you are an idiot.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Yes, don't blame the trolls that turn threads into flame wars. Blame the make-believe game that they play where everything is always a perfect setup, everyone has the best gear, everyone has every job & merits maxed out, and only fights the same single mob the whole time.

Just like the old saying "shit is situational"... Shit. Is. Situational.

The "trolls" wouldn't come out if you didn't have dumbfucks who insist on making it a point to tell us how bloody-fucking-awesome <insert unpopular job here> is every time <insert unpopular job here> is discussed.

The point of this thread was to discuss puppetmaster and, quite frankly, informing said idiots that its not even remotely appropriate to go around claiming that the job was ideal for anything is being informative. Hell, some of us have even gone into a good amount of detail as to why the job is second-string in all respects. Still want to play it anyway? I'm thrilled for you, just don't make it out to be something that it isn't(and subsequently, don't be surprised when your friends do just that, and draw the people with a grasp on reality out into the discussion).

And bee tee dubble-you, having a perfect or inperfect environment has no baring on puppetmaster's inferiority.

Edit: And just for the record, I strongly believe that most of the people commenting on how super-freakin-awesome Spiritreaver is completely overestimate how useful black magic is in general. As I said four or so pages ago, even BLM has limited purposes left in this game as far as a pure damage perspective is concerned, and even then, those instances usually have an ulterior way of making BLM the most desirable job for the nuking slot.

[Marcicus]

Like beating PLDs on parses on crawlers where RNGs cant.