Puppetmaster Changes

[Tsuko_Asura]

And someone accused me of taking away from this thread's intended purpose.

Laugh.

[miokomioko]

Example please.

Try reading the thread that you helped shit up.

[Psion]

And someone accused me of taking away from this thread's intended purpose.

Laugh.

You started it. ';.;'

[Tsuko_Asura]

Try reading the thread that you helped shit up.

Oh, you don't have a valid example? Gotcha.

[Psion]

Oh, you don't have a valid example? Gotcha.

Oh, you're too young and immature to possess reading comprehension? Gotcha.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I truly hope you're not referring to the trash heap of a wall of text.

Let me be perfectly clear: I want one of you- any of you- to give me specific examples of when puppetmaster is the most ideal job to have around for something. I want you to give me an example of when you can completely take the place of another job, and do what they were there to do better.

Edit: And please, please, please keep it simple, alright? I don't need to read six paragraphs about how you valiantly fought off the vicious hordes of terrible fiends that have been terrorizing the village and its peace-loving people- just tell me the situation, and tell me why your delusions lead you to believe that puppetmaster was the most optimal decision for it.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Oh, you're too young and immature to possess reading comprehension? Gotcha.

And hell, just for the sake of being catty, in what way does maturity play into one's ability to adequately understand reading material?

[Psion]

And hell, just for the sake of being catty, in what way does maturity play into one's ability to adequately understand reading material?

Apparently maturity is required to read all of a persons 6 paragraph post. You whine about not giving any specific examples of how pup is useful or the best in situations then you whine when we give evidence and say you didn't read it because it was too long. And since you can't understand what you don't read, apparently maturity is required to adequately understand reading material.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Doesn't sound like an example^

Edit: And if it makes you feel better, I just read your idiotic rambling, and there wasn't a single valid specific example in it. All you did was list examples of mobs that you put shitty BLMs against and random events that any qualified melee would absolutely annihilate you against.

[Psion]

Ok, I give up playing with the retard child. I'll just add him to my hide list, it's not worth dealing with idiots who contribute nothing to the thread but sam > all without giving reasons nor listening to the other side.

So... Is it the final word that H2H order for pup is kenkonken (augmented) > oberon's sainti (max stats) > mantis > Hades +1/waghs > wargfangs with 17 damage due to SE fuckup?

Also, while DRG used to be fairly viable with a haste setup, is it now practical for pup to do a 26% haste build with W turban, goliard saio, pantin hands, usu legs/feet or other haste substitutes, swift belt, and wyvern earring? Will it beat war for sub, assuming we can even sub war these days thanks to our new H2H buff?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Fine, I'll play your game. Responses are in bold.

I still don't get why I'm told I'm inferior to other jobs when in meripos I'm the top DD by a good margin unless it's a truly pimped out sam or drg with full merits and even then barely losing by less than 1%.

Not only do the experiences of essentially every person you'll ever have an educated discussion with in the matter disagree, this inane dribble could be just as easily mathematically refuted. Puppetmaster, as a job, is not set up for success. It does not possess the characteristics to make this claim legitimate or at all logical.

Why am I inferior to blm when parse says I have a lower resist rate on mobs like Ix'mnk, Dea, Sky NMs, jailers, VNMs, and more while doing more damage per spell and due to not having to worry about hate or running out of mp, ever, compared to blms who are fully merited, have HQ staves, novio, morrigans, sorc rings, and the works?

Ignoring the fact that half of those things can be killed alone by anyone with a stack of juices and a subjob with Bio II, again, its quite clear to anyone with experience in the matter that you're simply basing your arguments off of trials with completely unqualified players. Most of those things aren't even inherently resistant to elemental magic, and the others can be easily tamed with a proper build. Furthermore, and again, the events that black mage is most useful for don't particularly warrant concern over enmity levels or magic regeneration. The two most popular wyrms for instance, which are arguably most efficiently killed via manaburn, are easily kept completely docile while on the ground with ample time to allow VE levels to dissipate and MP to recover. Lastly, and I should hope reminding people of this isn't necessary, having a shiny item doesn't even being to suggest that the owner in any way understands its most potent use.

Why am I inferior to other jobs when I'm hitting monsters with high defense and evasion like their a bigger badder looking even match mob, to where Oniwaka's hits are doing on par or slightly higher than a drk or sam's swings while maintaining near capped acc? Then if hate is starting to approach the cap, ventriloquy that hate onto me and let it dissipate while oniwaka is able to continue going all out without pulling hate. All without being a burden on the mages mp pools.

Exactly- your automaton's damage is peaking on an EM target. One of your primary advantages is essentially one of your primary disadvantages. Pets' ability to dance around level-correction issues allow them to be at their full potential if they're fighting a Sea Puk and Kirin as if they were the same enemy. The issue at hand, however, is your inability to benefit from fundamental bonuses that should always already be present anyway, that in fact have a drastic effect on everyone else around you. Regardless of that irrefutable fact, I still find it incredibly difficult to believe that a properly-equipped samurai(lolbandwagon, amirite?) is going to have any trouble at all competing with your automaton against, for the sake of continuity, Kirin. Hitting for zero(and with fair accuracy, given that sushi is perfectly acceptable for that job in particular) is not going to happen with any regularity, which leads to the use of a weapon skill that shares the exact same advantage as your pet. Great katana, and by extension samurai as a class, has the exact same aversion to unfavorable situations that you do, with the added bonus of being able to grow and benefit from favorable ones.

As far as enmity is concerned, plenty of damage dealers are extremely potent tanks, without being "burdens on mages".

Why am I inferior when i'm able to cure someone without any hate, and allow even jobs that can't build hate while kiting to simply smack a mob once then take off running? Why am i inferior when I can hold a NM that people full wiped to and keep it from depopping without dying?

I'll keep this simple: are you claiming that you can actually replace a healer in any significant situation? If not, why is this relevant? A healer will be there anyway, and you'll be either overlapping their progress or twiddling your thumbs.

Why am I inferior when I can change my damage type dealt to any kind for events such as salvage, limbus, or dynamis depending on what is needed at the time?

Nifty, but as far as reality is concerned, not very useful. Perfect salvage setups are more than well-defined and easily available, and none of them include puppetmaster. The only part that I would be inclined to give you credit for is the fact that a single apollyon zone exists in which your abilities would be useful, but the fact that other jobs can do the exact same thing kinda' diminishes this. I'm not really sure what you mean in regard to Dynamis, because as far as efficiency is concerned, you're either dealing damage while tanking, supplying crowd-control, healing, or providing essential support, and you really do none of those things best.

Why am I inferior when I'm able to solo lots of NMs most jobs can't dream of, or hold lesser monsters solo in events with lots of annoying adds?

Seriously, why am I inferior when I'm able to do all this, all in one package, without the requirements of needing 3 other jobs just to make me worthwhile in damage on anything harder than meritpo, compared to other melee or mages?

If there's anything that people should have learned after nearly a decade of playing this game, its that being a "jack of all trades" is not a good thing in Vana'diel. What's, and in my opinion, unfortunately true, is that you need to be at least a master of one to be wanted.

In a perfect world with all the support in the world, with perfect tanks that never die, everyone has relics and 5/5 salvage gear, full merits, against monsters that never ever reset hate or ignore normal hate rules, all the endgame gear in the world, and there's enough people to execute a zerg on anything zergable, sure! SAM or WAR or BLM or what have you is better. Not as much as you'd like to believe, but they would be. But why would they be doing endgame in the first place if they had all that anyways?

For everything else in an imperfect world where tanks get one shot by NMs that cheat, or use moves that reset hate, people are actually in endgame to OBTAIN perfect gear and most possess some but not all of it, there's not enough KC drks and brds and cors and key jobs to execute a zerg, and not everyone knows exactly how to play their jobs perfectly for everything you encounter... there's pup. It's not a jack of all trades job at all, but one that mimics and adds its own flavor to other jobs. (think bartz in dissidia, whos moves are similar to other jobs but give him added effects, and has a few moves of his own) It's not for everyone, because it requires a ton of skill to execute properly, but for those who love a challenge in bringing a job's potential out, you won't be dissapointed, and any openminded leader who lets you use it will be delighted at what the job has to offer as well.

For you close-minded idiots, go back and jerk off to your haguns and aquillo staves while you weep over how your sam isn't useful in everything, your blm isnt useful in everything, your war isn't useful for everything, and you had to level 3 jobs and invest tens of millions of gil just to be good at different situations.

I won't dignify this rambling with an analytical response. I already touched upon the fact that "perfect situations" are hardly necessary to make puppetmaster second-string, and the rest is just you whining about god-knows-what.

[pchan]

So... Is it the final word that H2H order for pup is kenkonken (augmented) > oberon's sainti (max stats) > mantis > Hades +1/waghs > wargfangs with 17 damage due to SE fuckup?

capped acc :
kenkonken 3% better than shenlong (without the 3 str and 1% DA so probably on par)
shenlong 2% better than mantis (without the 3 str and 1% DA so ~4.5% better prolly)
mantis 0.35% better than oberon (without the atak from the 10 skill etc so it should be inferior )
oberon 0.6% better than warfangs (same remark, with the attack it wins by a larger margin)
warfangs 0.24% better than Hades hq
hades hq 1.8% better than hades nq
Hades nq are 2.1% better than wagh (without attack and accounting for -1 weapon rank)


if you add in acc
Kenkonken > shenlong > oberon maxed> HS+1> HS> wagh > others

[Meian]

capped acc :
kenkonken 3% better than shenlong (without the 3 str and 1% DA so probably on par)
shenlong 2% better than mantis (without the 3 str and 1% DA so ~4.5% better prolly)
mantis 0.35% better than oberon (without the atak from the 10 skill etc so it should be inferior )
oberon 0.6% better than warfangs (same remark, with the attack it wins by a larger margin)
warfangs 0.24% better than Hades hq
hades hq 1.8% better than hades nq
Hades nq are 2.1% better than wagh (without attack and accounting for -1 weapon rank)


if you add in acc
Kenkonken > shenlong > oberon maxed> HS+1> HS> wagh > others

It was recent for me to see the weapons rank on Wagh being based on the +13 as I had assumed Wagh was going to be better because of the bonuses.

Could anyone explain to me the difference and the importance of it? I am still reluctant to full-time Hades losing all that attack but guessing this weapon rank info outdoes it anyway.

[Zimbabwe Justice]

Has any more testing been done on the Turbo Animator? Last I checked like 3 years ago all it did was give a hidden +1 DEX to the PUP.

[Malacite]

That's fine as a straight as far as a DPS comparison goes but it goes without saying that Kenkonken also wins hands-down because of the drastically reduced overload mod. Being able to nearly spam 3x Ice Maneuvers constantly is nothing to sneeze at.

I think that's something that's being failed to be taken into account here. Yeah, PUP is pretty kick ass and is capable of some jaw-dropping shit, but it doesn't seem to me all that capable of keeping it up with any kind of reliable frequency because of said overload rates. Yes 3x Ice Maneuver is nasty as hell, it also has an extremely high rate of Overloading the 'maton not to mention that when you 1st activate the little guy his threshold is nearly maxed out so you gotta wait.

IIRC merits reduce this but idk by how much, and it's not to the extent that Kenkonken does either.

I too, find it hard to believe that a PUP can truly replace a dedicated job in any given role. I doubt SE ever intended it too either. Even still, being RDM +1 isn't all that bad and people need to quit hating on PUP. It's a solid job if the player takes the time & gil to make it.

[Kyte]

Yeah, PUP is pretty kick ass and is capable of some jaw-dropping shit, but it doesn't seem to me all that capable of keeping it up with any kind of reliable frequency because of said overload rates. Yes 3x Ice Maneuver is nasty as hell, it also has an extremely high rate of Overloading the 'maton not to mention that when you 1st activate the little guy his threshold is nearly maxed out so you gotta wait.

Condenser >_>;

[Franzer]

http://9gag.com/photo/17942_full.jpg

[Kametame]

I'll pull out the only part that matters since I hate the word "versatility" as much as you do. While we may be able to assign the auto to different things; we are first and foremost a DD. I'll use your template of putting my responses in bold to make it readable.

Fine, I'll play your game. Responses are in bold.

Why am I inferior to other jobs when I'm hitting monsters with high defense and evasion like their a bigger badder looking even match mob, to where Oniwaka's hits are doing on par or slightly higher than a drk or sam's swings while maintaining near capped acc? Then if hate is starting to approach the cap, ventriloquy that hate onto me and let it dissipate while oniwaka is able to continue going all out without pulling hate. All without being a burden on the mages mp pools.

Exactly- your automaton's damage is peaking on an EM target. One of your primary advantages is essentially one of your primary disadvantages. Pets' ability to dance around level-correction issues allow them to be at their full potential if they're fighting a Sea Puk and Kirin as if they were the same enemy. The issue at hand, however, is your inability to benefit from fundamental bonuses that should always already be present anyway, that in fact have a drastic effect on everyone else around you.

Yes, it does suck that automatons don't benefit from songs, rolls (aside from DRG,BST,PUP), and sambas as players do, but you seem to be discounting the effects of attachments that do indeed have a pretty large effect on what differentiates it between typical avatars, jugpets or charmed mobs.

For example, take the Turbo Charger. It grants the automaton a nice portion of haste (5%/15%/20%/25% for 0/1/2/3 Wind Maneuvers). I typically have 1 Wind maneuver up, but I do use a Spurrer Beret and Pantin Dastanas, giving it 23% Haste with 1 Wind maneuver. Under the effects of Overdrive, the automaton gains another 25% Haste. Its accuracy gets increased to the point here I can slap up more Wind Maneuvers (depending on the target, it can even be 3) for (up to) another 25%. Tack on gear Haste to set it to 58% Haste. If BRD and WHM/RDM/SMN were to be able to haste the automaton as well, you could see how horribly broken it would be.

Regardless of that irrefutable fact, I still find it incredibly difficult to believe that a properly-equipped samurai(lolbandwagon, amirite?) is going to have any trouble at all competing with your automaton against, for the sake of continuity, Kirin. Hitting for zero(and with fair accuracy, given that sushi is perfectly acceptable for that job in particular) is not going to happen with any regularity,

I'll have to stop you right here. Ever since the update, using pizza has pretty much become the gold standard for PUP. I haven't hit 0 on Kirin using pizza at all, our current H2H rank grants us a base damage of 31, with waghs/Hades, that damage is 49. The lowest I've ever hit Kirin for on a fist would be about 22 damage now.

which leads to the use of a weapon skill that shares the exact same advantage as your pet. Great katana, and by extension samurai as a class, has the exact same aversion to unfavorable situations that you do, with the added bonus of being able to grow and benefit from favorable ones.

[Demosthenes11]

protip: most DD damage comes from ws and not tp

[Toth]

protip: most DD damage comes from ws and not tp

Not sure about that. I have heard repeatedly from certain posters here that WS damage does not make a good DD. I can't tell you how many times I have done over 1k Stringing Pummels and then told, "oh thats nice. but <insert job> does more damage during tp."