Puppetmaster Changes

[pchan]

seeing as how this game ends at merit mobs and I see you want to make an argument completely ignoring ws frequency, I'll leave

I don't ignore ws frequency, I laugh at your statement that only WS damage is important for non fail DDs when in reality melee dot and WS are BOTH extremely important.

[Feedmenow]

Ach, misunderstood the level correction function applying AFTER cRatio being capped. Ohwell, Gekko still didn't AVERAGE 1k on l75 mobs.

[ronin sparthos]

On top of the fact that Overdrive is one of the (if not the) most useless 2hr Abilities in the game.

Azure Lore is on line 1.

[bigpapi]

Excuse my selective reading but did Pchan just say "PUP is a better then SAM" a few post ago.

[Feedmenow]

With fighter's roll constantly at 11 with a Warrior in the party as well, the average damage for max pdif would be:

(75+16+0.83*0.75*150)*1.85*((1-0.41)*1.975+(0.41)*2.975)*1.19=968

Well, damn.

Just the max (highest pdif, not averaging DA) would be 1207.

Considering that the actual pdif will vary between the max pdif and the min pdif, seems impossible to average at 1k with gekko.

Excuse my selective reading but did Pchan just say "PUP is a better then SAM" a few post ago.

When comparing a single weaponskill's damage.

I'm far more interested in proving whether Gekko is mathematically capable of averaging 1k or not than that subject though.

[Kametame]

Okay, I'm all for supporting PUP, but really? You're really using our 2 hour to justify PUP? Maybe you're hoping they don't realize Overdrive can only be done once every 2 hours? DRK (and SMN in Astral Burn...) are the only jobs that can get away with using their 2hr to justify their entire existence.

I wasn't using it to justify anything. I'm just trying to extrapolate why SE won't end up allowing BRD, COR (non pet rolls), Sambas, and enhancing spells for pets. It's most definitely a shitty excuse, nonetheless.

Edit:

I must admit to being a little more than dissapointed that none of the valiant puppetmaster defenders touched my long-winded response to Psion's idiocy. Well, aside from that random guy a page back who, in all honesty, didn't actually relevantly respond to any point I made(the random tangent about pizza kinda' though me off).

That's because Psion did something completely stupid and tried to fight on all grounds at the same time. I said it once, and I'll say it again: PUP is first and foremost a DD. PUPs. Are. DDs.

The thing is, we keep throwing legitimate parses up of nearly every event possible, and people keep giving us the same shitty excuses such as "the alliance must've sucked" or "you were parsing aganist gimps" or "they could've been doing something in RL".

"Well, it's because you knew that the parse was running."

I've parsed and I've been parsed. Regardless, parse or not, I play like how I normally do, just as I expect others to do.

[Amok]

Tsuko's posts in response to Psion all have this arrogant/unfriendly tone combined with rational sounding (counter)arguments, which helps me believe he knows what he's talking about, even if I don't know what he's talking about.

I have honest questions about all this.

Since I don't run parses or pt with PUP's often I can only go by memory. In a recent pt as I was raging over my underskilled scythe and not having Guillotine and being horribly outdone by a WAR I started paying attention to everyone's damage more. I'm pretty sure that this was one of those groups where the PUP was the top DD. I am adding the PUP and the maton's damage together, as that's the only fair comparison (no?). Without the PUP's own damage (was wearing mostly AF), I'm pretty sure the RNG maton was on par or slightly ahead of the WAR on these Puks.

It was a very low buff situation (still have trouble finding support members even after merge) which lends itself to PUP. From what I'm reading people aren't disagreeing with this, right? People are basically in agreement that in an EXP group (merit or earlier) without BRD's or COR's and other low-support situations, a PUP can and will on occasion be the top DD?

If yes, then why can't that be the conclusion of the discussion? Shit's situational, right?

[Draylo]

Azure Lore is on line 1.

Good for some e-peen screenshots! But yeah... It does suck for the most part =/.

[Demosthenes11]

pup on ranged frame is very fucking good at lesser colibris, top tierish

[Feedmenow]

It was a very low buff situation (still have trouble finding support members even after merge) which lends itself to PUP. From what I'm reading people aren't disagreeing with this, right? People are basically in agreement that in an EXP group (merit or earlier) without BRD's or COR's and other low-support situations, a PUP can and will on occasion be the top DD?

In exp (ESPECIALLY 10-55), PUP with sharpshot absolutely wrecks shit. I would not be surprised at all if the automaton alone was topping the parse. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the combined damage would still be in the PUP's favor even with a support like BRD or COR added in.

If yes, then why can't that be the conclusion of the discussion? Shit's situational, right?

Most likely counterargument would be that a very low buff situation is sub-optimal in the first place. Endgame forums also heavily favor endgame, so EXP-party-based arguments rarely count for much.

I will agree that as support goes down, pet jobs go way up in usefulness. On the extreme end, I know that a BST deals supreme damage in dynamis runs when your most reliable healers are the statues.

[pchan]

In exp (ESPECIALLY 10-55), PUP with sharpshot absolutely wrecks shit.

You don't "wreck" anything without haste, march, minuet or madrigal.

[Zeratu]

You don't "wreck" anything without haste, march, minuet or madrigal.

Because attachments don't do these things right?

[pchan]

Because attachments don't do these things right?

No, they don't. You don't clome even close to 60% haste on your puppet.

[Zeratu]

No, they don't. You don't clome even close to 60% haste on your puppet.

25% Haste on Automaton, plus the SAME buffs as you've described above on the PUP, with Birdbanes at 54+ and you've got serious competition for damage.

[Toth]

I wasn't using it to justify anything. I'm just trying to extrapolate why SE won't end up allowing BRD, COR (non pet rolls), Sambas, and enhancing spells for pets. It's most definitely a shitty excuse, nonetheless.

Edit:


That's because Psion did something completely stupid and tried to fight on all grounds at the same time. I said it once, and I'll say it again: PUP is first and foremost a DD. PUPs. Are. DDs.

The thing is, we keep throwing legitimate parses up of nearly every event possible, and people keep giving us the same shitty excuses such as "the alliance must've sucked" or "you were parsing aganist gimps" or "they could've been doing something in RL".

"Well, it's because you knew that the parse was running."

I've parsed and I've been parsed. Regardless, parse or not, I play like how I normally do, just as I expect others to do.

Could not have said it better myself.

[pchan]

25% Haste on Automaton, plus the SAME buffs as you've described above on the PUP, with Birdbanes at 54+ and you've got serious competition for damage.

So what ? you got ~55% haste total on the master, 65% with a DNC in the PT, BUT your pet is getting pathetic melee buffs, only 25% (didn't check ), and that's only if you maintain 3 wind manoeuver (which you can't), in which case your pet sucks because it's accuracy blows. If you don't want that your accuracy blows you give up win manoeuvers for lightning manoeuvers and lose haste => phail. While bard, cor, dnc can potentially tripple your damage output on the master, they do jack shit for the pet (pup roll anyone ¿), therefore you don't compete in a melee burn party.

[Talisien]

As a sideline observer of this thread, and as someone who would like to level Pup just for the fun of it (and to use my Usukane I guess), I've found it informative, so thank you.

As a brief response to the ... contentiousness that I've seen percolate throughout though let me just remind everyone that plays the best jobs that second tier jobs will always, ALWAYS, seek to find their niche, and the smaller and more situational it is, the more fiercely they will defend it. Even if a job would parse within 5% of this job in its niche, that will look like a serious threat to the utility of the job as a whole, as it is again, so situational. Conversely of course, when this situational job parses within 5% of the first tier jobs in something, context and rationale is offered as an explanation, thus fueling the mad need to defend whatever niche can be found. It is a circular problem.

In short, a lot of people have made very cogent arguments in this thread about how to best utilize Puppetmaster. That's great for me, an observer, because I can figure out if I should level it, when I would use it, and how best to use it. For example I had no idea of the interaction of melee Puppets and JoL.

anyways, I'll hop off my taru-sized soap box now and ask my question (which perhaps would fit better in the Random Question Thread, but then again, I wouldn't have gotten to whip out the soap box!)

Anyone have a good strat for the Puppetmaster version of Pulling the Strings? The other Wiki is sadly lacking in this department.

Thanks very much, and to the pups (and the mathologists among us), I say, keep on, keepin on.

-tali

[miokomioko]

Anyone have a good strat for the Puppetmaster version of Pulling the Strings? The other Wiki is sadly lacking in this department.

I had written one a while back and PM'd it to people but I have no idea where it went and I haven't had anyone ask this question in a long time. If I can recall correctly, it was basically to use Harlequin head/body with flash/provoke and plenty of evasion/defense/HP attachments and immediately go all-out on the automaton if he summons a Harlequin or Valoredge. Leave it be, letting your automaton tank both mobs if it's a Sharpshot or Stormwaker. Repair often, use Hi-Potions when you pull hate, use fire/light/earth maneuvers in rotation, etc.

I've seen people write up evasion-tanking methods but I never went that route and I don't think I've ever lost the 25+ runs I've done with my setup, so whatever works!

[Dooom]

So what ? you got ~55% haste total on the master, 65% with a DNC in the PT

You're aware he specified from lvl 10-55, right? So those high levels of haste aren't available to your typical DD.

[Taruking]

You're aware he specified from lvl 10-55, right? So those high levels of haste aren't available to your typical DD.

Do ppl actually care how much damage PUP can do from lv10-55? BST can be decent DD at those levels once they get access to Call Beast, still doesn't make them a popular job.

Melee pet job is just a stupid concept and a complete failure in FFXI history. I rather SE take BST's axe skill away and give all the melee stats to their jugpet, at least they don't have to feed double amount of TP for the same amout of damage.