Puppetmaster Changes

[Damane]

So I picked up PUP again after the update. Was stuck at lvl 62 and called it quits because it really started to lack (before the Update) in terms of strength, but gees SE has gone overboard, this shit destroys MNK miles away. Now PUP feels like a real DD (at least for me).

[azagarth]

So I picked up PUP again after the update. Was stuck at lvl 62 and called it quits because it really started to lack (before the Update) in terms of strength, but gees SE has gone overboard, this shit destroys MNK miles away. Now PUP feels like a real DD (at least for me).

you bumped the thread for this?

[Psion]

If your pup was lacking in damage before this recent update, you need to take a serious look at your gear and attachments/maneuvers used. The mid 60s were when other DD finally started to come closer to me in damage, and only if they were very well geared.

Pup is fucking broken now though, I love it. <3

[Tsuko_Asura]

Nothing to be worried about when going against an equiv geared pup.

Not an exact comparison, but enough for general use w/o going too too detailed in the math.

Assuming both have full uuskane, 25% haste vs 17% haste (unless pup has nsash but I think we can leave that out).

348 vs 411 delay (mnk destroyers, pup hades sainti).

Even though pup will most likely have A-, we'll ignore that and also the differences from mnk's higher str and the fstr it brings them. Pummel is a better ws, and this is being far more than generous, so we'll call it a 5% increase to mnk's ws dmg.


348 vs 411 delay

1/(348/411) = 18.1% increase in attack speed.


Assuming double march, haste, 60% haste for mnk, 52% haste for pup.

8/(100-60) = 20% increase in attack speed from haste

1.20 x 1.181 = 41.72% of an increase in attack speed that mnk has in any pt w/ a brd and a rdm.

Since we're calling pummel a 5% increase, mnk is now
36.72% ahead.

This means, the maton alone would have to do 36.72% of a mnk's dmg just to break even w/ a mnk, yet alone defeat one. Also doesn't account for focus, counters, ect on the mnk's end.

Looking at the current comparison, pup really needed this overhaul just to compete, imo.


Edit: Doesn't account for the delay gained by 3+ maneuvers a minute, either.

http://killingifrit.com/forums/topic...-pupdate-math/

He goes into a bit greater detail further along. Sorry, PUP is still a joke as far as meleeing goes.

[spooky]

Pup is fucking broken now though

It's hardly broken, I think what you meant to say is that it doesn't suck ass any more, which is quite different.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Meh. Anything it sucked for before the update, it still sucks for now.

[Psion]

So basically, tanking, main healing on anything harder than meripo level (though a useful backup healer), ranged DD.

However, it still can cure pretty well, dish out blunt/peircing/slashing damage according to needs, make a blm cry with it's nuking prowess, and has attachments that ignore huge chunks of an enemy's evasion and defense, allowing my oniwaka to parse 90% acc (without a cor!) on kirin while hitting him for 55-90+ a whack normal hits, 350ish ws? Oh, and it absolutely trashes weaker mobs such as those in nyzul. It can also solo a lot of different notorious monsters, either through kite and nuke strategy, or straight tanking with evasion build. Did I miss anything?

Oh, and you get to creep people out with a faceless puppet.

[Meian]

Why was Wagh not being used over Hades? I know wiki mentions Weapon Rank seems to count for the +13 and not the +18 on the Wagh but I can't attest to knowing what this may mean or if it is true.

As for Manuevers go, perhaps I am ignorant but I had always figured using them right after an attack round wouldn't really affect the delay on the next hit. Chances are I may be wrong but /shrug

I haven't parsed since the update but I am curious to try this out just to see first hand some differences. Granted, there are flaws with this:

1) What to fight on? Birds means Sharpshooter giving the Automaton a nice type advantage. I haven't done Mamools in a long time but Spiritreaver was used by most higher PUPs I know (I use to use Valoredge the few times I was there).

2) Gear-wise. Obviously most PUPs and MNKs aren't going be sporting full Usukane but curious to see how it turns out with the run of the mill good gear (shura {mnk} and afv2/pln body {pup; tho enkidu isn't THAT hard to get}). I understand the test was just to keep them as closely even as possible in terms of gear obtainable outside of relic/mythic weapon.

I am a bit confused by him saying he wasn't taking into account the H2H upgrade (which of course wasn't A- in the end) so was he just referring to PUP before the updates taking place?

But I assume you were just caring about PUP and MNK melee without Automaton with PUP having a better WS but lower skill level, lack of higher martial arts, and less haste gear.

[Cream Soda]

Why was Wagh not being used over Hades? I know wiki mentions Weapon Rank seems to count for the +13 and not the +18 on the Wagh but I can't attest to knowing what this may mean or if it is true.

was just a general comparison, not a full blown one. Used same weps for simplicity. I didn't use destroyers for mnk, either.

[Draylo]

They don't know any other job besides sam drk and rdm

[Meian]

Why was Wagh not being used over Hades? I know wiki mentions Weapon Rank seems to count for the +13 and not the +18 on the Wagh but I can't attest to knowing what this may mean or if it is true.

was just a general comparison, not a full blown one. Used same weps for simplicity. I didn't use destroyers for mnk, either.

Just using the same base damage but not accounting for effects? kk I understand better then was just going by the test showing destroyers/hades mentioning which I suppose doesn't matter because this test looks like it was just about melee speed and % difference in WS'ing generally.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Maneuvers are like all JA, and will significantly slow you down over time.

His reference to the H2H upgrade was in regard to increases in base damage due to skill being raised, but considering it was going to be on par(if not less) with the STR bonuses MNK has over PUP, he didn't take it into consideration(and it would have been less than calculated anyway, considering he assumed PUP was getting A-).

[Cream Soda]

Just using the same base damage but not accounting for effects? kk I understand better then was just going by the test showing destroyers/hades mentioning which I suppose doesn't matter because this test looks like it was just about melee speed and % difference in WS'ing generally.

Basically, yes. A very general comparison. Though, I didn't even account for the delay pup will get from spamming maneuvers.

[Cream Soda]

The comparison was honestly biased towards the pup. Didn't account for skill diff either, mainly attack speed.

[Tsuko_Asura]

So basically, tanking, main healing on anything harder than meripo level (though a useful backup healer), ranged DD.

However, it still can cure pretty well, dish out blunt/peircing/slashing damage according to needs, make a blm cry with it's nuking prowess, and has attachments that ignore huge chunks of an enemy's evasion and defense, allowing my oniwaka to parse 90% acc (without a cor!) on kirin while hitting him for 55-90+ a whack normal hits, 350ish ws? Oh, and it absolutely trashes weaker mobs such as those in nyzul. It can also solo a lot of different notorious monsters, either through kite and nuke strategy, or straight tanking with evasion build. Did I miss anything?

Oh, and you get to creep people out with a faceless puppet.

Multiple jobs can do everything you mentioned(better), with the added benefit of actually being useful for other things.

Versatile =/= Useful

[Meian]

Fair enough thanks though gives me something to look into. I suppose I can try to merit a bit on the weekend to parse (provided I can find one that works well for me) and see the gap difference. Likely it will be skewed because it will likely be birds... Hopefully end up with some decently geared MNKs XD (yes yes lolparse gear/skill/type/etc but I don't really have any other means just to see where I stand and even then will prolly be flammed like I was for parses I did on kirin and sky gods pre-tp burn and 2h update)

[Tsuko_Asura]

I didn't see the Kirin bit, actually. I'm sure your PUP would do pretty well for a low-man, kited Kirin.

[Psion]

Did you entirely miss the part where I said that pup makes blm cry? I wasn't joking about that, a pup with 2M or so in attachments and some merits can do blizzard IVs that are comparable to a well geared blm's AMII, with extremely high magical accuracy. (Tranquilizer is no joke, if the automaton is getting heavy resists with that and merits/pet magic acc gear, it's almost assured that even the best of blms aren't faring so hot either. The thing is, the pup has the option of changing to valoredge and snipping large chunks out of a monster's defense.)

Unlike traditional melee, who require corsairs/brds/dia III/angon and the like just to hit decently on a lot of HNMs, an automaton requires nothing, though puppet/beast roll and defense down debuffs will enhance it like any other melee. Being able to ignore Pdif and level correction is a huge thing, and attuner/target marker are estimated to ignore 15% of an enemies defense/evasion per maneuver used. With overdrives boost to automatons acc/att/attack speed/etc, 5/5 optimization, and 3 fire maneuvers, Oniwaka was hitting the same kirin for 130 a whack normal hits, and some critical hits broke 200 damage. This was without dia III, angon, or box step, and no beast roll either. The only targets that give an automaton trouble with melee damage are those that have a large amount of -physical damage taken, in which case, why are you picking melee over magic anyways?

This is my current best, thanks to the new update which boosted our maneuvers stat gain from +2 to +7 max per maneuver. So now my Oniwaka has 15 more int to play with on HNMs, making him hit even harder than before. =D This was done with burn on mob, abs-int used, and double ice weather bonus, no other buffs. I'd test on level 0 mobs but Oniwaka refuses to cooperate and just casts 300+ damage stone I or something similar. ;x

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...322_234542.png

Previous best before newest update: 2665 under same conditions and mobs. Oh, and I'm still missing at least 9 Pet magic attack bonus from 2 augmented sapphire earrings and the new magian H2H.

Ok, time for sleep, since I finally finished my essay. <(_._)>

[Meian]

I didn't see the Kirin bit, actually. I'm sure your PUP would do pretty well for a low-man, kited Kirin.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showt...ighlight=kirin

Been a while though but the other top damage dealers were BLM (the only ones rotated out if I remember right) and I think SAM would have to look at it again. Again, pre-TP burn (had several kirins anyway so even if we did to it it wasn't going to work the second time) as in kited fight as you say and before the 2h update. Has some other sky gods in there I think.

Not that this is relevant to today anyway lol that 2h update is going to give too much trouble for me parse-wise on kited kirin today I think.

Edit: Psion, as I am glad you have love for PUP job it would do many of us other PUP players to not attack other jobs or use them in that type of comparison. It makes it less credible and less likely to be cared for (more than it already is anyway lol). PUP has some nice parts in it, as you mention in terms of damage-wise in one shot with bliz IV, but there are still flaws to it such as time needed between spells etc etc (not going to drivel or turn this further into a PUP love/hate debate but you know what I mean)

[Tsuko_Asura]

SAM doesn't need any help to beat PUP against HNM, and the few things that BLM is optimal for(mostly manaburn wyrms like Tiamat and Ouryu or lowman HNM), PUP isn't a wise replacement.

Not saying don't play PUP, because I'm sure its a hell of a lot of fun, but pretending its better than anything else(much less monk, lol) is pretty silly.