Puppetmaster Changes

[Cream Soda]

Did you entirely miss the part where I said that pup makes blm cry? I wasn't joking about that, a pup with 2M or so in attachments and some merits can do blizzard IVs that are comparable to a well geared blm's AMII, with extremely high magical accuracy. (Tranquilizer is no joke, if the automaton is getting heavy resists with that and merits/pet magic acc gear, it's almost assured that even the best of blms aren't faring so hot either. The thing is, the pup has the option of changing to valoredge and snipping large chunks out of a monster's defense.)

Unlike traditional melee, who require corsairs/brds/dia III/angon and the like just to hit decently on a lot of HNMs, an automaton requires nothing, though puppet/beast roll and defense down debuffs will enhance it like any other melee. Being able to ignore Pdif and level correction is a huge thing, and attuner/target marker are estimated to ignore 15% of an enemies defense/evasion per maneuver used. With overdrives boost to automatons acc/att/attack speed/etc, 5/5 optimization, and 3 fire maneuvers, Oniwaka was hitting the same kirin for 130 a whack normal hits, and some critical hits broke 200 damage. This was without dia III, angon, or box step, and no beast roll either. The only targets that give an automaton trouble with melee damage are those that have a large amount of -physical damage taken, in which case, why are you picking melee over magic anyways?

This is my current best, thanks to the new update which boosted our maneuvers stat gain from +2 to +7 max per maneuver. So now my Oniwaka has 15 more int to play with on HNMs, making him hit even harder than before. =D This was done with burn on mob, abs-int used, and double ice weather bonus, no other buffs. I'd test on level 0 mobs but Oniwaka refuses to cooperate and just casts 300+ damage stone I or something similar. ;x

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/h...322_234542.png

Previous best before newest update: 2665 under same conditions and mobs. Oh, and I'm still missing at least 9 Pet magic attack bonus from 2 augmented sapphire earrings and the new magian H2H.

Ok, time for sleep, since I finally finished my essay. <(_._)>

Wall of text, but I have 75 pup, and as a pup you should know that a pup can't nuke that hard with any type of frequency. Once per minute, tops.

[Ophannus]

Wall of text, but I have 75 pup, and as a pup you should know that a pup can't nuke that hard with any type of frequency. Once per minute, tops.

Moot point? Most BLMs don't nuke for 2500+ more than once a minute on most things unless they want to eat dirt. At least with a PUP it's just a pet and they could dismiss it.

[Cream Soda]

Moot point, because most BLMs don't nuke for 2500+ more than once a minute chances on anything unless they want to eat dirt. At least with a PUP it's just a pet and they could dismiss it.

Except for you're not going to nuke 2.5k+ on any mob worth a fuck. Try, so 2.5k is a moot point, as well.

[azagarth]

you will nuke more than once a minute. Toss your auto out on the mob asap and get a nuke off, then 3 ice manuever it up and get a big nuke. Do the good ole hate shedding deactivate and do it again. If you time it right you get 2 off in a min lol..... Thats pretty good even if the first only gets one ice it still can land decently on most mobs.

If the mob doesnt have some freak mdb or something you should get 700~ on first nuke and 1400~ on second. I am not sure of many jobs who can get 2100/dmg a min and live lol.

Vegs math for the pupdate was off and I wouldent take any of those results. they may be reliable but sure as heck not valid. The simple fact is this. There are top rate DDs sam/war/apocdrk/kclubrng/drg at bird camp sam/war/apocdrk/mnk for mmj. Then there are second rates DDs which pup falls into, but takes a very high if not top seat at. However 2nd rates DDs will be able to come close to all jobs if the players is decked with gear and knows wtf they are doing. This though doesnt really matter since most people will have a 2h job.

Pup gets worse as your party gets better. The more support buffs your getting the worse off you are. The sad fact is in a party with say 2 polearm sams who are decked and have 600 attack.... your going to deploy it, attack, and watch it blow up before your auto can hit it twice lol.... its in these parties that pup will be truly lolworthy, however any job in 2nd tier would be, even mnk. I will give some examples of my last 2 meripos. I did one on pup with some avg DDs. A war drg and sam. The closest DD to my pup was 7% behind after totals. This is because We had no brd and only a cor who refused to roll for us (i would have left but i wanted finish my pup buffer lol). The DDs obviously lackluster where still pretty avg for PUG people, they had all the AH gear but nothing else really. These are situations where pup shines (i was /nin too since i knew it be gimpish). Jump forward to my next meripo where I busted out my tomoe sam. We had whole bird camp to ourselves and cleared both top and bottom birds and tossed a few wivre in too for chains. Stuff died nearly instant with me and the other sam avging 1300~ on penta (can be higher, but between both pulling we lost a buff way to often, and wivre killed avgs due to some mistimed 0dmg pentas lol). In this situation pup would never be able to really dd on the mob since they died in 19 sec fight avg according to parse (avg length was 29 including pull time). in 19 Sec a pup will be swinging maybe 5 rounds after he deploys and tosses 1 manuever up a fight, the auto will shot once and swing about 4 times. With that kind of DD your not going to be able to ws all to often, which is where pup gets a good chunk of its dmg, nor will you have long enough to really dot attack it.

ITT: Pup nukes great on anything but the most magic stingy mobs. In xp they are fine in "avg" parties and get rocked once you have top tier DDs who know wtf they are doing. Paper math is to sketchy to really get at what a job does performance wise in a party.

[Cream Soda]

you will nuke more than once a minute.

I'll stop you here. I never said you couldn't nuke more than once a minute. I said you couldn't nuke THAT HARD more than once a min. We all know full power nukes need 3 ice maneuvers.

[Cream Soda]

Vegs math for the pupdate was off and I wouldent take any of those results.

Anything that was off was giving the pup too much credit for not accounting all its weaknesses, like the time you won't be meleeing because you are using maneuvers, having to depoly every fight, times you'll have to retrieve because the mob has not moved, ect. I also didn't account for mnk's higher skill, that's in pup's favor. I didn't account for focus. i didn't account for counters. Should I go on? That comparsion was VERY biased in favor of pup.

[azagarth]

and is still off? Like i said I wouldent take any of it to heart lol.

[Cream Soda]

and is still off? Like i said I wouldent take any of it to heart lol.

Yes it's off. off in the sense that if you take my number, that mnk's increase is actually higher than my projected number.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Are you even listening to what he's saying? The only thing that was off about it was its extreme bias towards puppetmaster. The only thing that would come out of making it more accurate would be how much worse off it is.

And MNK/WAR is hardly second string DD, lol.

[azagarth]

Yes it's off. off in the sense that if you take my number, that mnk's increase is actually higher than my projected number.

cool never said which way it was off. Still wouldent touch it until all variables possible are accounted for and we use appropriate weps. My mains MNK veg... i feel like you think I am trying to show pup as Godly... read my post I clumped it in kinda as "king of the 2nd rates lol". Sad fact is mnk will suc everywhere but salvage and so will pup, but pup atleast can do endgame events better due to having a blm bot, or valor kiting.

[azagarth]

Are you even listening to what he's saying? The only thing that was off about it was its extreme bias towards puppetmaster. The only thing that would come out of making it more accurate would be how much worse off it is.

And MNK/WAR is hardly second string DD, lol.

check my post again where I dont say it is.... arguing just to argue is fun?

[Cream Soda]

It's more accurate and useful than anything you've ever posted on any ffxi forum, I can say that much.

[Tsuko_Asura]

cool never said which way it was off. Still wouldent touch it until all variables possible are accounted for and we use appropriate weps. My mains MNK veg... i feel like you think I am trying to show pup as Godly... read my post I clumped it in kinda as "king of the 2nd rates lol". Sad fact is mnk will suc everywhere but salvage and so will pup, but pup atleast can do endgame events better due to having a blm bot, or valor kiting.

Uhh.. What? Monk is an extremely solid DD, in addition to making a spectacular tank for quite a few different occasions. What exactly are you using Spiritreaver on that a melee DD or BLM wouldn't be better for?

[azagarth]

its about as accurate as saying "pup sucs".

I don't go around posting forum math because its pointless. Everyone has different gear sets, and the fact is paper math cant account for everything. Instead I parse my results and compare them to myself. Its simple to do a fight on 100 mobs and stop your parse and see how many attack rounds each job really does, then take the avgs dmg per fist and # of ws's. Not totally accurate but to me its no worse then theory crafting imo.

I do use a lot of your info veg.... but really you have such a bias to mnk (not talking about your math) that you can never admit to its flaws.

[Cream Soda]

I do use a lot of your info veg.... but really you have such a bias to mnk (not talking about your math) that you can never admit to its flaws.

And this clearly shows why you don't know shit about me.

You know, I have 5 jobs, and I use them accordingly. I don't sit there and say "omg let me come mnk to everything because its the best at all stuff".

Instead I parse my results and compare them to myself.

Retarded way to compare. All a parse will show is who is more aggressive. The math doesn't show what WILL happen, but it shows the max POTENTIAL that if you play to your fullest, you can achieve.

All a parse will show you is who engaged faster and ect.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Parsing is only useful for comparing players, not jobs.

[azagarth]

And this clearly shows why you don't know shit about me.

You know, I have 5 jobs, and I use them accordingly. I don't sit there and say "omg let me come mnk to everything because its the best at all stuff".


Retarded way to compare. All a parse will show is who is more aggressive. The math doesn't show what WILL happen, but it shows the max POTENTIAL that if you play to your fullest, you can achieve.

All a parse will show you is who engaged faster and ect.

I do know you have 5 jobs (mnk/pup/dnc/sam/drg right), and still you always come off on these forums as mnk being all that matters. Its a dead job get over it, like 12 of the other jobs this game has.

as for parse I dont look at total dmg. I know how flawed that is. I look at my avgs I do for myself w/o comparison to others. That to me is more accurate since you can see your real increases in action and not on paper.

Anyhow since your talking about MAX POTENTIAL.... mnk fails in every situation then sorry to burst your bubble. Hell even in salvage mnk isnt going to outdo a Sam so there is no real point in comparing any DD to each other since if your not a SAM your not at full potential.

[Cream Soda]

I know how flawed that is. I look at my avgs I do for myself w/o comparison to others. That to me is more accurate since you can see your real increases in action and not on paper.

Sorry, half baked. That does not work for anything having to deal with attack speed. (and considering the post you were criticizing was dealing mostly in attack speed, yea, your parses don't mean shit, buddy)

mnk fails in every situation then sorry to burst your bubble.

Maybe your fail ass shit that had shenlongs w/ no black belt. Sam will kill faster on the way up, but mnk is still better for the boss. You know why 2handers are king? Hasso. Take that away, jugging seigan and PDT gear, and you have a tank that puts out mediocre damage.

and still you always come off on these forums as mnk being all that matters.

Again, you don't know shit. I know when to use which jobs. I don't go mnk to everything.

your

Grammatical error.

[LinktheDeme]

Parsing is only useful for comparing players, not jobs.

Vastly inaccurate statement, you can easily compare jobs on monsters that are long enough to engage past a certain time interval. (Most commonly HNMS). You could argue that other players could be too retarded to perfectly compete sure, but then why are you in a ls with a bunch of retards and comparing the them.

Though parsers have the main flaw of ignoring the benefits of support on mobs that like to debuff and people with better support will perform better always, and it is something that is rarely seen on a parser. Then again though this would be an argument against said parser assuming a mob spams debuffs.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Vastly inaccurate statement, you can easily compare jobs on monsters that are long enough to engage past a certain time interval. (Most commonly HNMS). You could argue that other players could be too retarded to perfectly compete sure, but then why are you in a ls with a bunch of retards and comparing the them.

Though parsers have the main flaw of ignoring the benefits of support on mobs that like to debuff and people with better support will perform better always, and it is something that is rarely seen on a parser. Then again though this would be an argument against said parser assuming a mob spams debuffs.

Why would you do that when we have all of the resources needed to simply calculate which job will outperform the other? Sure, mathcraft doesn't account for absolutely everything, that's clear to anyone with half a brain, but people who think that parsing is less biased than math have no idea what they're talking about. Parsing requires an absolute vacuum to be accurate.